No comparison between show and dealers. Show sound starts with bad rooms. Good dealers have good rooms. Not glass behind the speakers, 2 inch thick walls, etc. Most audiophiles have speakers too big for their rooms. If you have a decent room and match up the gear, you will have fairly decent sound for audition. I am really not expecting too many Mike L level tweaks, if anything, many audiophiles might actually degrade their sound trying to do something different
Stereophile | January 2017 Issue
- Thread starter NorthStar
- Start date
No comparison between show and dealers. Show sound starts with bad rooms. Good dealers have good rooms. Not glass behind the speakers, 2 inch thick walls, etc. Most audiophiles have speakers too big for their rooms. If you have a decent room and match up the gear, you will have fairly decent sound for audition. I am really not expecting too many Mike L level tweaks, if anything, many audiophiles might actually degrade their sound trying to do something different
This is true in the extreme....many times I've returned from shows or dealers thinking "there's no place like home....there's no place like home..."
I really cannot understand why you hadn't previously arranged a session with CLX's in KJW1's main demo room, you would have access to a huge range of source to amplification, all valved or SS inc D'Agostino which you seem to like, ARC, Dartzeel, Metronome not to mention some excellent Vinyl front ends etc.etc.etc.
Will do. Then I did not want to arrange with them unless I was a customer for something. But this shop was happy to give us a tour and Gian is demoing digital
that's a definite conclusion right there!
numerous times I've come across dealer's systems not in ideal room set ups but you cannot correct this for they know far more than you and have been in this industry for years... yea right!
The disappointment is not only with dealers. I've also found this to be true in a majority of homes as well. As Bonzo correctly pointed out, high end speakers placed in the smallest rooms possible. They can afford to spend nearly a million on gear but just can't seem to understand the room factor. Again no point in correcting because you would probably be shown the door...
I'm not a big fan of room correction treatment where I go overboard and over do things. Rather just prefer to sit back and enjoy the music! This is what a lot of audiophiles/music lovers and audio enthusiasts are missing. Everything seems to hover around the most expensive gear rather than focusing on how to get your existing system to sound its best.
Most systems that I have enjoyed, although quite simple in comparison to some crazy level out there, are ones that have been carefully placed. Well laid out with plenty of room to breathe naturally and deliver those natural overtones. When I hear such a system, I know straight away that it sounds just right and I loudly state to the owner not to change a thing "it sounds fine!"
Some will never learn, anyway at the end of the day it helps me to make better choices, which some I stil regret making several years back. It is also a wonderful experience to learn from the people who are passionate about their music and systems, and how they have put it all together over the years. What measurements they used and references to create system with room interaction guidelines. The type of wiring, ground layout, cable dress and required lengths. Listening position and speaker placement are only two factors that contribute to this massive synergy that makes your system reproduce recorded music as perfectly as possible.
The absolute funny and crazy thing is, now we are finally ready to start looking for new homes, and thought the process of land and purchase plus building would be fairly straight forward once all the boxes are ticked. However, this is clearly not the case! I have yet to find an existing home listed on the market that caters to the lounge setup I'm after. The wifey seems to like a place but I start frowning, and of course she states "ah! it just had to be those new martin holdens you bought, not enough space eh for the back wall..."
She always gets the name wrong but remembers Martin or Conrad, can never remember the second half. No point in correcting that! Until such time, the house hunting continues, probably wouldn't find anything suitable unless I was to actually build, afterall the room is very critical.
It will take some convincing, might as well enjoy the present room whiles there is peace. Cheers to all for 2017!
RJ
numerous times I've come across dealer's systems not in ideal room set ups but you cannot correct this for they know far more than you and have been in this industry for years... yea right!
The disappointment is not only with dealers. I've also found this to be true in a majority of homes as well. As Bonzo correctly pointed out, high end speakers placed in the smallest rooms possible. They can afford to spend nearly a million on gear but just can't seem to understand the room factor. Again no point in correcting because you would probably be shown the door...
I'm not a big fan of room correction treatment where I go overboard and over do things. Rather just prefer to sit back and enjoy the music! This is what a lot of audiophiles/music lovers and audio enthusiasts are missing. Everything seems to hover around the most expensive gear rather than focusing on how to get your existing system to sound its best.
Most systems that I have enjoyed, although quite simple in comparison to some crazy level out there, are ones that have been carefully placed. Well laid out with plenty of room to breathe naturally and deliver those natural overtones. When I hear such a system, I know straight away that it sounds just right and I loudly state to the owner not to change a thing "it sounds fine!"
Some will never learn, anyway at the end of the day it helps me to make better choices, which some I stil regret making several years back. It is also a wonderful experience to learn from the people who are passionate about their music and systems, and how they have put it all together over the years. What measurements they used and references to create system with room interaction guidelines. The type of wiring, ground layout, cable dress and required lengths. Listening position and speaker placement are only two factors that contribute to this massive synergy that makes your system reproduce recorded music as perfectly as possible.
The absolute funny and crazy thing is, now we are finally ready to start looking for new homes, and thought the process of land and purchase plus building would be fairly straight forward once all the boxes are ticked. However, this is clearly not the case! I have yet to find an existing home listed on the market that caters to the lounge setup I'm after. The wifey seems to like a place but I start frowning, and of course she states "ah! it just had to be those new martin holdens you bought, not enough space eh for the back wall..."
She always gets the name wrong but remembers Martin or Conrad, can never remember the second half. No point in correcting that! Until such time, the house hunting continues, probably wouldn't find anything suitable unless I was to actually build, afterall the room is very critical.
It will take some convincing, might as well enjoy the present room whiles there is peace. Cheers to all for 2017!
RJ
I have always found KJ to be most accomidating re pre arranged demonstration time, I would recommend ARC valve Pre either REF10 ( rather important if available) or if unavailable they have the new Ref 6, with a swap out between ARC Ref250 ( again best choice if available) or GS150 if not, then either D'ag or Dart amplification.
I would imagine that they would even accommodate you were you to lug your beloved GG with you.
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The room factor is a main reason why I don't think about switching from a monitor/subwoofer system. My room is 24 x 12 x 8.5 feet. Some have suggested it might take larger speakers. Even if I had the money I would not be in the mood to try. I'd buy a more expensive monitor/subwoofer system instead
. For large speakers I'd like to have a really large room.Very true. And a mistake in my view as well.
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Hey Al, nice to hear from you mate. Been a while since we last spoke about digital.
I'm now enjoying my digital VERY much once again, thanks to the ML Ethos! Very nice with CD & SACD, no where close to this level of quality when I had the big Quads. Wow, what a difference in level of resolution and fine detail. Transparency & Imaging and of course that noise free from pops/clicks/surface noise is wonderful indeed! I do enjoy LP's as well but for once whiles listening to digital, I don't itch myself getting to LP's like before... Now I listen to both at about equal lengths. I haven't purchased any new music lately, too busy with the house scenario, work and the wifey just hit her car! So this needs to be fixed tomorrow at the dealership, just a great start to 2017 I must say!
I have heard many wonderful things about your system, and would absolutely love to listen and learn about how you have achieved this sound to near perfection. This is what I'm talking about, where someone has truly cared for their proper room setup and got each component to match well. Perfecting the system as well as the room and keeping things simple, in my opinion is certainly a wonderful sounding set up.
Each time I visit Kostas place and listen to his CLX's, I always learn something new. It is either room dimensions, size and openness of the room, allowing space and air to flow freely without any hindrance, plus placement and positioning. Therefore, after last visiting his place and going through numerous accounts of proper placement in live demos, I actually un-spiked the Ethos and started all over again. I think I have now found a far better placement config that gives me 50% more than what it sounded like before, and they are still settling in. I have now spiked them once again, but this will all change once we relocate. Until such time, might as well sit back and enjoy the music!
Cheers Al and all the very best to 2017!
RJ
I'm now enjoying my digital VERY much once again, thanks to the ML Ethos! Very nice with CD & SACD, no where close to this level of quality when I had the big Quads. Wow, what a difference in level of resolution and fine detail. Transparency & Imaging and of course that noise free from pops/clicks/surface noise is wonderful indeed! I do enjoy LP's as well but for once whiles listening to digital, I don't itch myself getting to LP's like before... Now I listen to both at about equal lengths. I haven't purchased any new music lately, too busy with the house scenario, work and the wifey just hit her car! So this needs to be fixed tomorrow at the dealership, just a great start to 2017 I must say!
I have heard many wonderful things about your system, and would absolutely love to listen and learn about how you have achieved this sound to near perfection. This is what I'm talking about, where someone has truly cared for their proper room setup and got each component to match well. Perfecting the system as well as the room and keeping things simple, in my opinion is certainly a wonderful sounding set up.
Each time I visit Kostas place and listen to his CLX's, I always learn something new. It is either room dimensions, size and openness of the room, allowing space and air to flow freely without any hindrance, plus placement and positioning. Therefore, after last visiting his place and going through numerous accounts of proper placement in live demos, I actually un-spiked the Ethos and started all over again. I think I have now found a far better placement config that gives me 50% more than what it sounded like before, and they are still settling in. I have now spiked them once again, but this will all change once we relocate. Until such time, might as well sit back and enjoy the music!
Cheers Al and all the very best to 2017!
RJ
Yes, these days both digital and analog can provide enormous listening pleasure.
Sorry to hear about the car...My old one had too many repairs coming up too, so I bought a one year old Nissan Versa. I just wanted a cheap car to go from A to B, but it drives like a little sports car -- so much fun!
You are certainly welcome to visit once you have the opportunity to jump over the pond. The system is far from sounding near perfection. Yet to me it presents music in an enormously exciting and involving manner, which is all that matters. Every system, no matter the price, has its inevitable compromises, and I am very happy with mine.
Yesterday I had a wonderful New Year's Day of music with Hindemith, Rihm, Stravinsky and Barrett (the latter has a close collaboration with Australia's Elision Ensemble, by the way).
The same to you, RJ!
To elaborate on the sound , firstly i only listend to one song(a long song 5 min, same song as in the promovid ) which is not enough off course , secondly they were placed relative close to the back wall .
I was interested in the stereo image with so much drivers firing in all directions ,
When i moved my head 30 cm to the left or right the image was virtually gone and you were listening to one speaker , the sweetspot in this case was pretty small i didnt expect that ,
Further it makes all the more clear to me that just throwing wattage and a lot off( bass ) membrane aint a sure case for accurate/controlled / dry deep bass , i think the speaker uses papercomposite membranes for the bass and the muddyness you hear is the membrane flexing , the motor might be strong enough but the piston aint, and may be better decoupling to the floor i dont know what they use
I was interested in the stereo image with so much drivers firing in all directions ,
When i moved my head 30 cm to the left or right the image was virtually gone and you were listening to one speaker , the sweetspot in this case was pretty small i didnt expect that ,
Further it makes all the more clear to me that just throwing wattage and a lot off( bass ) membrane aint a sure case for accurate/controlled / dry deep bass , i think the speaker uses papercomposite membranes for the bass and the muddyness you hear is the membrane flexing , the motor might be strong enough but the piston aint, and may be better decoupling to the floor i dont know what they use
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Know more than you say; say less than you know
As the thread is running out of steam and having refrained from posting earlier, for fear of spoiling the self-indulgent fun, I am compelled to address some well-intended thoughts to Bonzo, hoping not to deliver a «coup de grace», neither to him nor to the thread.
I have noticed that your expressed views regarding the Martin Logan CLXs, on this and other threads, harbour a degree of preconception and prejudice but, as I do not believe that it stems from malice, I would like to document my concerns.
Your posts are often detailed and informative about other speakers, conducted under prolonged and properly set up auditions and yet, with the CLXs, your « conclusive» remarks seem to be rather fleeting and disparaging and ( by your own admission ) without a genuinely proper audition.
You have EVERY right to criticise and dislike the CLXs ( there are no «thornless roses», remember? ) but your credentials as a universally perceived «cognisant» of speakers is somewhat tarnished by such foolhardy, unsubstantiated remarks and by not applying a consistent methodology of auditioning\reviewing speakers.
I am not a fledgeling with matters pertaining to this hobby and my admiration for the CLXs is well-documented for five months now, as the owner of a brand new pair. I have seen and heard many much more espensive speakers and consider the CLXs to be aesthetically and sonically stunning, regardless of price. And I can assure you that I have very strict criteria and high standards. I live for sounds and music, playing instruments, recording and revelling in the beauty of reproduced music, like all of us.
This is NOT a vendetta, an attack. Your genuine passion and knowledge for this hobby is well-doumented and greatly appreciated and your globe-trotting audio escapades are the envy of every audiophile. It is, on the contrary, a concern about your dismissive approach of a certain product ( the CLXs ) which I and many others know very well, just like others rightly express similar concerns about products that they know equally well.
Please, have a proper audition of the CLXs, hopefully with recordings that you know EXACTLY what is on them, as they do not augment and adultarate ( preferably one’s own recordings ) and, by all means, document your findings freely and fearlessly. It is not a precondition at all that you have to like the CLXs. Preferably, live with the speakers for a while rather than admitting to a dealer’s audition and surrendering your long-acquired knowledge to the conveniences of the dealer.
Finally, be reminded that, for those that know, the voracity of one’s words is sharply devalued by such approaches and the ......» EARS BECOME THE BACK DOOR OF TRUTH AND THE FRONT DOOR OF DECEPT ( Baltasar Gracian ).
Also know that, despite my caustic narrative, your multi-faceted contributions are unmatched and immensely appreciated. You are becoming a martyr of our beloved hobby\passion. Thank you.
Cheers and keep well, Kostas Papazoglou.
As the thread is running out of steam and having refrained from posting earlier, for fear of spoiling the self-indulgent fun, I am compelled to address some well-intended thoughts to Bonzo, hoping not to deliver a «coup de grace», neither to him nor to the thread.
I have noticed that your expressed views regarding the Martin Logan CLXs, on this and other threads, harbour a degree of preconception and prejudice but, as I do not believe that it stems from malice, I would like to document my concerns.
Your posts are often detailed and informative about other speakers, conducted under prolonged and properly set up auditions and yet, with the CLXs, your « conclusive» remarks seem to be rather fleeting and disparaging and ( by your own admission ) without a genuinely proper audition.
You have EVERY right to criticise and dislike the CLXs ( there are no «thornless roses», remember? ) but your credentials as a universally perceived «cognisant» of speakers is somewhat tarnished by such foolhardy, unsubstantiated remarks and by not applying a consistent methodology of auditioning\reviewing speakers.
I am not a fledgeling with matters pertaining to this hobby and my admiration for the CLXs is well-documented for five months now, as the owner of a brand new pair. I have seen and heard many much more espensive speakers and consider the CLXs to be aesthetically and sonically stunning, regardless of price. And I can assure you that I have very strict criteria and high standards. I live for sounds and music, playing instruments, recording and revelling in the beauty of reproduced music, like all of us.
This is NOT a vendetta, an attack. Your genuine passion and knowledge for this hobby is well-doumented and greatly appreciated and your globe-trotting audio escapades are the envy of every audiophile. It is, on the contrary, a concern about your dismissive approach of a certain product ( the CLXs ) which I and many others know very well, just like others rightly express similar concerns about products that they know equally well.
Please, have a proper audition of the CLXs, hopefully with recordings that you know EXACTLY what is on them, as they do not augment and adultarate ( preferably one’s own recordings ) and, by all means, document your findings freely and fearlessly. It is not a precondition at all that you have to like the CLXs. Preferably, live with the speakers for a while rather than admitting to a dealer’s audition and surrendering your long-acquired knowledge to the conveniences of the dealer.
Finally, be reminded that, for those that know, the voracity of one’s words is sharply devalued by such approaches and the ......» EARS BECOME THE BACK DOOR OF TRUTH AND THE FRONT DOOR OF DECEPT ( Baltasar Gracian ).
Also know that, despite my caustic narrative, your multi-faceted contributions are unmatched and immensely appreciated. You are becoming a martyr of our beloved hobby\passion. Thank you.
Cheers and keep well, Kostas Papazoglou.
Wow actually your post is quite defensive, as are all yours where CLXs are concerned. I have owned Summits, heard ML Summit Xs and Ethos many times (always better at dealers than audiophiles), and CLS, and now the CLX. I did actually say I will listen to it again. Sorry if it neither impressed me (nor Gian60). I am off stats. I am also generally off speakers where I see much better value at those prices - guess you missed me genuinely congratulating Big Dog RJ on his Ethos purchase, which I see as quite an excellent value.
As for recordings, I always carry my LPs and CDs. So I do not know what is not a consistent methodology. The room was quite good, once you have space from the front wall and some width that itself is a great start with panels. The electronics were great too, and apart from the fact that he could have had valves in there, and some isolation, there was nothing more to be done. It confirmed what I already knew after having heard so many stats, so will it change favorably with valves in, I am most certain it will, but did it sound different from Summits apart from the hybrid - no it did not, if anything, I prefer the bass of the hybrid despite hearing the crossover.
And no, I did not surrender anything to a dealer. Valves, SS class AB and class A is a preference, seldom do you get an audition with all of them. If my preference changes with different amp demos, will keep you updated. The fact that I don't get as excited about them as I do about restored Apogees, certain horns, or Mike L's system does not mean they are not good. And not being classified as seamless in the context of the thread is not a negative either.
As for recordings, I always carry my LPs and CDs. So I do not know what is not a consistent methodology. The room was quite good, once you have space from the front wall and some width that itself is a great start with panels. The electronics were great too, and apart from the fact that he could have had valves in there, and some isolation, there was nothing more to be done. It confirmed what I already knew after having heard so many stats, so will it change favorably with valves in, I am most certain it will, but did it sound different from Summits apart from the hybrid - no it did not, if anything, I prefer the bass of the hybrid despite hearing the crossover.
And no, I did not surrender anything to a dealer. Valves, SS class AB and class A is a preference, seldom do you get an audition with all of them. If my preference changes with different amp demos, will keep you updated. The fact that I don't get as excited about them as I do about restored Apogees, certain horns, or Mike L's system does not mean they are not good. And not being classified as seamless in the context of the thread is not a negative either.
I think Ked is trying to become the "HP equivalent" of the internet.
I am somewhat comforted by his current thread "for audiophiles".
I am somewhat comforted by his current thread "for audiophiles".
I think Ked is trying to become the "HP equivalent" of the internet.
Quite the opposite, actually. I only audition components I am interested in - currently on the analog, SS amp compares for Apogees, and will start an amp compare for horns route. Not much interest in anything else, and definitely don't want to be a commercial mag style reviewer. If anything, one of the reasons for starting Zero D was because on my demos I got to see many components which are not heavily advertised, displayed in hifi shows, or have a strong retail distribution presence, which I thought were much better value with better sonics, and which I wanted to share. Most of which I myself discounted before I heard them.
What took you so long to respond? Six minutes dude.
I do think you offer "value" to those who have "similar" perspectives on uber expensive gear or little known brands.
Happy New Year.
I do think you offer "value" to those who have "similar" perspectives on uber expensive gear or little known brands.
Happy New Year.
These swaps in a shop with many pieces can be very misleading. Most of this excellent amplifiers will need a reasonable warmup before they are showing their most interesting and distinct positive and unique characteristics. Such comparative auditions mostly show the bass characteristics, general tonal balance and headroom. And I have never seen a shop with a measuring device to calibrate sound levels.
At home or in long listening sessions we have time to establish the ideal level for the recording - curiously, even without watching levels, listening levels converge for each recording.
It should be remembered that if they were using Transparent Audio, cable types need to be changed between amplifiers.
But if you ignore the biases of the writer - not too difficult - Zero distortion supplies great information and good read.
Both points easily addressed.
On swapping
1. Actually, good dealers many a times have amps warmed up overnight.
2. What I look for is exactly what you said - bass characteristics, if one of them has a bad tone, what is their style of soundstage with that speaker , etc
3. Your caveats don't take into account the fact that I will do comparisons in different systems, so while one session can be misleading, if you hear the same characteristics of the amp across compare sessions, they would be usually correct. Given that all I am looking for is a final shortlist, once you have a shortlist this way, the thing is to finally try them on your speaker.
4. Example of above and non-bias: When I went to Joel, bias said that Luxman would lose out to Ypsilon aelius, which then was my theoretical dream amp - listening told me that Luxman was better on all aspects. Heard Ypsilon in 2 other sessions, and compared Luxman to Mephisto and Viola Symphony. While the Mephisto was better, Luxman characteristics always repeated and were superb for the money. I am assuming Vitus and a few others will be better too, they are much more expensive. Here Luxman is presented as a high value for money product, and not necessarily as the best despite the price. The write-up will also provide links to others who have drawn similar conclusions and what their comparisons were.
5. Zero D is actually having 2 more join in - while one will focus on classical music and LP reviews, the other will be doing in-house demos. So sometimes I will travel over to his place and give a visitor's review to what he is going to have inhouse - that will give you guys two perspectives. As you know, if he and I disagree, then you guys don't have much to go on, but if both of us agree, I think you guys will have more confidence that bias is in check.
Bias
1. To ignore my biases, you should know what the biases are. What if my bias was A, and experience changed the preference to B? Do you know my bias was A, or do you consider my conclusion B as the bias?
2. Did you know that Martin Logan was my favorite speaker, and then I changed my preference to Analysis Audio (modded), then to many horns, and for two years, I did not like Apogees, and told Justin (User 211) they were shite? So can you identify the bias? Not to mention I still hear Apogees I don't like, hear some that I do, and also now heard something that has again put a horn back on the list? Ok, so you might say I am biased against cones, but then why add YG and Stenheim above cones (though still prefer Aps and horns to them).
3. I haven't checked, but I am willing to bet a few people here that I text with like Audiophile Bill, Ron, etc expected to hear back when I visited Mike that "what a waste of money, another expensive cone system, blah blah blah". That was the bias, definitely. I was certain I would come back with a polite write-up that between the lines read waste of money, but Apogees are much better. They would have been surprised to have instead received the texts they did.
4. If you read Marty's system review, and what I have written in About Me (yet to publish), my travels started because I was biased against DRC - I traveled to Marty's to see how could DRC possibly be good. And the travel taught me that heck, just get your ass off the plane and eliminate/confirm the bias.
5. I soon learned that biases were being explained away as experience, where in reality most people were not even actually listening to the components in question. In fact, if you go around and listen to some alternatives, you will change your bias too - I don't think many here will be stubborn in changing if they listen to something, before they vest their emotional and financial interests in it. Just check how many who have challenged me on restored Apogees have actually heard one - they have heard Maggies, Apogees 20 years ago, "because planars cannot do bass Apogees cannot too", etc. My travels expose me to drastically different schools of thought - helps nip biases in the bud before they are developed and passed away as experience.
6. We again come to the same point on bias as with the word opinions - are biases being formed with or without auditions. My contention is that most people on this forum are deciding, and purchasing, without proper compares. It might appear that the two of us have different tastes, but in reality, one might have actually the heard the various components in question and one might not have. In which case, preference of the guy who has heard cannot be dismissed as bias relative to guy who hasn't done the compares yet defends a preference.
7. In the vintage vs modern hifi section, many are choosing modern without having heard the vintage in question - despite reading that Steve, Marty, and I preferred alternatives to Techdas, and Steve actually owns one, and he, DDk, and I, actually like Techdas. Yet people who haven't done those compares, do not understand how a 100k modern TT cannot be the best and continue to be so biased.
8. You will be surprised how much in sync Gian60, his friend and I were in Italy. Very different gear, very different backgrounds and music tastes. It is just a question of going through the same experiences rather than writing on a forum because I own A, and have never heard B, A still has to be the best because it is modern/costlier/of XYZ design/measures better, and I heard a product similar to B 20 years ago in a hifi show so it cannot contend.
9. Don't forget I was anti-SS and pro tubes only, so please explain the bias. Ron actually accused me (in good humor) of not sticking to a philosophy
10. I was of the school of thought that analog and digital don't make a difference, so please explain the bias. Am I now biased to analog, or was digital my bias? I was also vested emotionally and financially in the Lampi so to stay with that bias would have been a good thing.
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Interesting you mention warmup time. I am currently reviewing the Ayon Auris preamp with Vulcan Evo monos and while the Vulcan Evos seem to warmup and reach a very good sound relatively quickly the Auris was taking FOREVER. I don't know for a fact but i suspect the Vulcans came to me with some KM on them and the Auris was brand new. At first I was leaving the Auris on for and hour or two for warm up and it was sounding very precise but somewhat analytical...my NAT Plasma sounded significantly more natural. However, after leaving it on more or less continuously it has lost that electronic signature and is very transparent and with a very natural tone and lacking in artifice. The NAT still sounds a bit more "big boned" but the Auris gives more precision to the sound without (now) sounding electronic. A lot of break in to get it there but it seems to get there now after an hour of warmup...before that it can still sound a bit artificial. Had the demo been set up incorrectly, with the Auris played from cold it would have sounded distinctly inferior to the NAT, which sounds quite good right out of the gate, but with both warmed up properly they are about even but each one has somewhat different strengths.