Stereophile | January 2017 Issue
- Thread starter NorthStar
- Start date
@ Mike & Steve & other high calibrated stereo sound systems WBF members;
is it possible to do quality youtube music videos of some of your favorite ? tunes in your high end sound rooms?
_____
Demo:
Bonus:
is it possible to do quality youtube music videos of some of your favorite ? tunes in your high end sound rooms?
_____
Demo:
Bonus:
I don't see how that is possible seeing how seamless is a made up audiophile word. It has no specific meaning. Your system may be seamless or not. Without an objective standard, no one knows if you are wrong or right.
This is one of those lay terms that we associate with systems but it really has no meaning.
Amir,
there is no right or wrong. there is only how it sounds to you.
I'd say in the culture of those I listen with, and interact with, 'seamless' has a very solid meaning and is not really ambiguous. essentially it means you don't hear drivers, or crossovers, or holes in the FR spectrum. it does not mean there are no problems, only that those problems are not evident.
and there is 'more seamless' and 'less seamless' and 'not seamless'....within the general use.
and who really cares what others might think about that? it works fine as a way to relate a characteristic.
I totally understand if it does not work for you.
Cringe away. It is a fact jack. ALE/GOTO drivers are tens of thousands to start if you believe them to be the best. A basshorn that is 10m+ long is going to cost a tens of thousands. Ask anyone doing throats on a lathe how long it takes and the meticulous effort involved minus the exotic wood to make it look pretty.
Unless you DIY (in which case it will still be very expensive especially if you dont want it to look like DIY horn) will be the only reason it cant be done north of 100k. Not at all an association of price to performance as many use the term to equate to quality. Again this is why horns south of 100k or even 50k tend to come with the typical compromises associated with turning off the typical audiophile
And this is why a panel (Apogee or ML) at is best will not be effortless enough to reproduce what a horn can do with ease. Not to say its better but we are just talking physics here. Line arrays or multi driver towers like Mike's are what put dynamic speakers closer to that of a line array in terms of lower distortion.
This I believe is why the culmination of most of the best designs always uses duplicates of drivers in their flagship to get the drawbacks of a point source to that of a line array.
They may not be evident to them but that doesn't remotely mean they are not there. Those holes you speak of are all measurable. If you measured them and expressed the accolade in those technical terms then you have something. As it is, it is just a bragging word with no meaning whatsoever.
If your system is so seamless Mike, how come those who come and listen haven't replicated it? Why do they go radically different ways?
Simple listening tests show that audiophiles are extremely poor by the way in determining holes in speaker response. I have sat through a large group of high-end dealers and none did better than general public in hearing such anomalies. Yet I am sure they walk around saying this or that system is seamless or not.
As I said, it is a made up term. To then argue that your approach achieves it more than some other is silliness taken to an extreme.
I would argue the seamless measured or not is relative when describing a quality of sound reproduction where the imaging is so precise that you cannot tell where anything is in the room.
IMO
I only have the capacity for a couple of rounds with you Amir......with all due respect.
I cannot comment on other's actions relating to my system or their own rationalizations for or against related actions. if you are asking have others followed some of my system/room/tweaks directions over the years....well.....I think that has happened....yes. I have repeatedly cited my own listening experiences in other systems as helping me to connect the dots and taking my own system further for sure....particularly recently. and whether those systems where I liked an attribute had verifiable measurable qualities or not I could care less. what I got from them was an aural reference for me to pursue....I had a target to shoot at.
I acknowledge that a person such as my speaker designer, who is a professional at relating measurements to speaker performance in room, is one of a few people who might actually be able to do what you speak of. many try for sure.
that is all background noise to me, as I have pointed out to you before.
I cannot comment on other's actions relating to my system or their own rationalizations for or against related actions. if you are asking have others followed some of my system/room/tweaks directions over the years....well.....I think that has happened....yes. I have repeatedly cited my own listening experiences in other systems as helping me to connect the dots and taking my own system further for sure....particularly recently. and whether those systems where I liked an attribute had verifiable measurable qualities or not I could care less. what I got from them was an aural reference for me to pursue....I had a target to shoot at.
I acknowledge that a person such as my speaker designer, who is a professional at relating measurements to speaker performance in room, is one of a few people who might actually be able to do what you speak of. many try for sure.
that is all background noise to me, as I have pointed out to you before.
Not a fact. An opinion. ALE/GOTO are believed by some to be the best... On what metrics do they base this belief? ... What makes this a fact? OK! So it is an opinion. Mine is different. IMO some other drivers even at times Pro drivers and compression drivers achieve great results. Having heard some mega expensive horns and asked what the fuss was about, I find myself quite a ease with the lowly (!!!)
, inexpensive JBL K2 such as the Everest DD67000, M9500 and newer S9900 and even the M2 . That is a point of view and in the absence of metrics we'll have to only have opinions. For metrics prupoes the M2 seems quite a feat ... that FR is deamlike but I have loved speakers with far worse FR ...On the bass issue, I do strongly believe that basshorns are not required for good bass reproduction, I believe the best bass is from IB. in those you can use multiple serious drivers and have level of distortion that only electronics can approach. I also strongly believe in multiple subs and in DSP like in Digital Signal Processing... for the bass I like the rest of my spectrum to be left untouched... On the notion of a long horn... a 10 meter anything hints to me at propagation delay with respect to wave launch ... DSP anyone for time alignment? with your SET? .. No ... I didn't think so
... I am not interested in those exotic products. I find their reproduction quite particular, nothing that I dream of. as i said to another WBFer, I subscribe to the Harman boys philosophy of reproduction. Call me a fanboy I'll be OK. South of $50 K horns don't turn me off. I love the JBL K2 M 9500 ... used of course since it is no longer made.. Will blow the pants of many modern day speakers in my book. That is what makes this hobby so wonderful . Differences of opinions...Hi Joshua. Look at your definition and Mike's
He doesn't even mention imaging.
A term can not be argued about if we can't even agree on what it means. And certainly not when we test listeners and they flunk the ability to hear gross variations of it.
I guess at some level I like us to use terms that have no association with technical meaning. At least then, it can be any and all things. But if we want it to mean what you say and certainly what Mike says, we have great ways of measuring those and apply psychoacoustics to get real meaning about them. Why not use that instead of generic lay terms???
My question was addressing a specific item - the K2 or the M2 together with the IBs. I consider the speaker/sub or speaker/bass towers as one block, I can not understand how we can dream about such set without first listening to them together. But yes, considering my experience with subs I am tempted to belief that some sets of speaker/subs designed by the same manufacturer are a good dream ... Yes, I would use Thor's with my dream XLF's without second thoughts ...
Different stroke. My belief based on experience and shared by quite a few is that with the right tool you can integrate subs, different subs with mains from various manufacturers. Oh! I dream of things I haven't heard but know from people who made them that they will work
Ask Dr Geddes or Dr Olive or Dr Toole... if the K2 or the M2 or the 4367 would work with IB , I already know their answers.Et vive la difference - the K2 S9500 and M9500 were the products of Greg Timbers, before the Harman boys philosophy of reproduction ... Did you ever see their measurements or listen to them blindfolded?
Not a fact. An opinion. ALE/GOTO are believed by some to be the best... On what metrics do they base this belief? ... What makes this a fact? OK! So it is an opinion. Mine is different. IMO some other drivers even at times Pro drivers and compression drivers achieve great results. Having heard some mega expensive horns and asked what the fuss was about, I find myself quite a ease with the lowly (!!!)
On the bass issue, I do strongly believe that basshorns are not required for good bass reproduction, I believe the best bass is from IB. in those you can use multiple serious drivers and have level of distortion that only electronics can approach. I also strongly believe in multiple subs and in DSP like in Digital Signal Processing... for the bass I like the rest of my spectrum to be left untouched... On the notion of a long horn... a 10 meter anything hints to me at propagation delay with respect to wave launch ... DSP anyone for time alignment? with your SET? .. No ... I didn't think so
For the record ALE/Goto is not something I subscribe to as being worth the hype.
As far as price lets just ditch it. When you take the JBL what makes it any different from the Usher with an identical design minus the ports? (see below)
JBL
Usher
This is where yes you can get a plenty of choices in horn designs, but they are mostly an off the shelf tractrix design and added bass cabinet (paper cone usually) to match the speed of the compression driver(s).
Most are just adaptations of the same design. Like the ALE/Goto drivers the people that use them also design similarly stacking and adding their own throat based on reference tractrix.
Since Mike brought up the seamless use of horns you will need a matching basshorn. As this is always an expensive proposition than adding in a active sub most opt for the latter. So I would agree that you dont have to have it, but then again you have to have it
DSP is definitely a blessing to making an active sub work, but they do not sound the same no make how well you optimize the DSP
I am just an advocate for folks realizing why horns are going to make a comeback in the US. Long overdue
But where is the fun in everything making sense Amir? Might as well talk cables and measurements lol.
If you think seamless is bad you should hear my definition of Transparent
HeheBut where is the fun in everything making sense Amir? Might as well talk cables and measurements lol.
If you think seamless is bad you should hear my definition of Transparent
. BTW, you should get Mike to hear the Bach organ you played for me sometime. His definition seamless and transparent may change. Happy holidays Joshua. Will you be at CES?
For the record ALE/Goto is not something I subscribe to as being worth the hype.
As far as price lets just ditch it. When you take the JBL what makes it any different from the Usher with an identical design minus the ports? (see below)
JBL
View attachment 30357
Usher
View attachment 30358
This is where yes you can get a plenty of choices in horn designs, but they are mostly an off the shelf tractrix design and added bass cabinet (paper cone usually) to match the speed of the compression driver(s).
Most are just adaptations of the same design. Like the ALE/Goto drivers the people that use them also design similarly stacking and adding their own throat based on reference tractrix.
Since Mike brought up the seamless use of horns you will need a matching basshorn. As this is always an expensive proposition than adding in a active sub most opt for the latter. So I would agree that you dont have to have it, but then again you have to have it
DSP is definitely a blessing to making an active sub work, but they do not sound the same no make how well you optimize the DSP
I am just an advocate for folks realizing why horns are going to make a comeback in the US. Long overdue
Not sure I get your points. You came up with the ALE/Goto thing to suggest why good horn had to be expensive. Not me. So ...That the Usher resembles the M9500 means not much either. They look alike .. Do they sound alike? I don't know and I haven't heard the Usher ( presently using a Audio Dancer II) but would like to. As for tractrix it is one type of horn profile and there are others. Not sure JBL uses tractrix .... In the meantime Japan and other parts of Asia are consuming with voracity anything JBL produces including those that were designed by the Science bent team of Toole, Olive et al ... They may know something or two about how things should sound
Definitely agree with all this Mike and your prior posts; well said.
Yours truly,...
Another multi-driver speaker owner who knows how seamless sounds
and now on the 2nd speaker in house he can claim that for....!!!