Subwoofers Compared

[audioguy]

Although they focus on home theatre, I found this to be an interesting comparison:

https://www.themasterswitch.com/best-subwoofers

Interesting list but I think it might be more helpful to list those subs they DIDN'T like. Sort of looks like the Stereophile list of recommended components. There is no way I would be able to make a decision based on that list unless I ONLY cared about price. They say one sub is better than another but don't get very granular as to why.

They love the Wilson sub at over $20K but I would much rather have 4 of a couple of the $3000 subs spread around the room and have far superior results. Oh well! Just my $0.02 !!

 

[sbo6]

Late to the convo but another for JL Audio. Sealed subs are the way to go IMO, I have 2: F113s and they're fabulous tight, articulate and punchy when need be.

 

[DaveyF]

I now use two REL subs...and drive them both off the amps. With REL subs, I have found that in order to increase their resolution and control, you need to use an after market power cord...and even more importantly, after market Subwoofer cabling...and keep that cabling as short as possible. Plus, one needs to raise the subs up onto their own isolation feet...very important, IME.
With these mods, I think the REL’s are very tough to beat.

 

[Morgon]

Although I don’t know all subwoofers you listed above?but I always like JL.

 

[rgmd11]

Late to this thread, but I have 2 x F112v2 with the CR-1 crossover, sounds stunning with my active ATC's, very very fast and extremely musical

 

[Len44]

Late to this thread, but I have 2 x F112v2 with the CR-1 crossover, sounds stunning with my active ATC's, very very fast and extremely musical

How helpful was the CR-1 in setting up your subs and with integrating into your system?

 

[cjf]

I was very close to getting the Funk 18's myself back when I was shopping around but didnt feel like waiting many months to get the product in hand. Instead I ended up with a different setup that I think doesn't really compromise much and offers alot of bang for your buck.

For the price of 1 Funk I got 2 Rythmik E15HP2-SE's and find them to be great. I wanted something that could keep up in terms of clean, low distortion bass output at the higher SPL levels I typically listen at. This is one area, I feel, where many subs fall short; especially when dealing with only 1 sub.

There are several web sites online that conducted testing on some of the big name brands as well as some of these smaller operation brands. Things get interesting with those tests when the SPL level is pushed and distortion levels at lower Freqs are observed. Bang for the buck wise, Rythmik was up there with the best of them and the low price can allow for an easy decision to justify multiple subs which everyone knows is the best approach anyway...when possible.

For about $4K I ended up with subs that can easily keep up with my 100+dB listening sessions and not even begin to break a sweat (The cones basically show no signs of even moving at all) and are clean/flat down to 17hz at that listening level in a fairly large listening room. Of course I could crank them up waaay more than this and probably even tune them further to achieve even lower bass freq output but the system is tuned to match the output of my rather "small" Pass Labs XA60.8's mono blocks and my electrical circuit throws a fit when I let the subs attempt very low single digit response output at higher spl levels (900w Class D amps in each)

I tried using the internal x-over and tuning options on the subs themselves but ended up under whelmed with the sound and how they blended with the mains. I suspect this issue would be the same for almost any brand when relying strictly on the in-built controls on the back of the plate amps. It wasn't until I dove head first into the realm of computer based DSP (Audiolense) that I could finally see/hear what was possible with a properly integrated sub setup.

These days I no longer use all those knobs and the restrictions they impose found at the back of the sub units themselves...except of course for the vol knob used during initial setup only.

So in summary, my vote goes to Rythmik

 

[stehno]

I was very close to getting the Funk 18's myself back when I was shopping around but didnt feel like waiting many months to get the product in hand. Instead I ended up with a different setup that I think doesn't really compromise much and offers alot of bang for your buck.

For the price of 1 Funk I got 2 Rythmik E15HP2-SE's and find them to be great. I wanted something that could keep up in terms of clean, low distortion bass output at the higher SPL levels I typically listen at. This is one area, I feel, where many subs fall short; especially when dealing with only 1 sub.

There are several web sites online that conducted testing on some of the big name brands as well as some of these smaller operation brands. Things get interesting with those tests when the SPL level is pushed and distortion levels at lower Freqs are observed. Bang for the buck wise, Rythmik was up there with the best of them and the low price can allow for an easy decision to justify multiple subs which everyone knows is the best approach anyway...when possible.

For about $4K I ended up with subs that can easily keep up with my 100+dB listening sessions and not even begin to break a sweat (The cones basically show no signs of even moving at all) and are clean/flat down to 17hz at that listening level in a fairly large listening room. Of course I could crank them up waaay more than this and probably even tune them further to achieve even lower bass freq output but the system is tuned to match the output of my rather "small" Pass Labs XA60.8's mono blocks and my electrical circuit throws a fit when I let the subs attempt very low single digit response output at higher spl levels (900w Class D amps in each)

I tried using the internal x-over and tuning options on the subs themselves but ended up under whelmed with the sound and how they blended with the mains. I suspect this issue would be the same for almost any brand when relying strictly on the in-built controls on the back of the plate amps. It wasn't until I dove head first into the realm of computer based DSP (Audiolense) that I could finally see/hear what was possible with a properly integrated sub setup.

These days I no longer use all those knobs and the restrictions they impose found at the back of the sub units themselves...except of course for the vol knob used during initial setup only.

So in summary, my vote goes to Rythmik

Ditto on the Rythmik. I've owned an E15 for 5 years now. For several years I thought it was a so-so sub and was even getting anxious to sell it and try something else. But I went back the 1-page summary config sheet for about the 40th time and after trying to read between the lines this time, I kinda' nailed it. Don't know how and I can't quite pin point which switches / dial combinations took me over to the other side but I never once moved the sub since the time I installed the sub 5 years ago. Go figure.

Maybe that's a testimony to Rythmik having sufficient enough toggle switches and knobs (maybe 9 - 10) to dial things in for most any rooms. Anyway, extremely pleased with its performance now. Very tight and musical and deep though I suspect deep is its weakest link in my config as the bass drops off right around the 21-20Hz which is still good. In fact, I've continued to encounter improvements from time to time with further fine tuning.

Superior or musical bass never seems to come easy. In fact, it seems many aren't even aware of its existence. But when the planets are aligned, not only does the bass become tighter, deeper, more well-defined, more musical, and just downright more alive in the lower regions including hearing many bass notes previously inaudible, it's also rather amazing how a superior bass balances out an otherwise potentially lean overall presentation by adding depth and warmth presumably embedded in the recording and not induced by certain electronics.

Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Rythmik line up. I too suspect a 2nd matching sub will greatly benefit and these days I'm contemplating a pair of Rythmik's 18-inch subs which should be pretty awesome if I could get them dialed in.

 

[sbnx]

Rhythmik makes a great sub. After I setup my pair of Funk 18.0's I bought a pair of Rhythmik F18's. I had the Funks in the front and the Rhythmik's in the back. I worked on Geddes setup method. It worked quite well. In the end, after a large positional change of my main speakers I didn't need the subs in the back of the room. I sold the F18's to a friend.

For 99% of rooms two Rhythmik F15's is more than enough for music. Two subs do more for the music than just bass extension.

 

[rgmd11]

How helpful was the CR-1 in setting up your subs and with integrating into your system?

Hi Len44

The CR-1 in my opinion nails the intergration with my subs and sealed active ATC's very very well indeed, as is generally acknowledged the holy grail with subs is to not percieve that they are there, and in my system that is certainly the case, the tonality is fantastic, never heard piano sound so good, i have had a few different sub and speaker configurations in the past that were just never "right" and at last i am very happy, only looking at getting some bigger ATC's at some point.

 

[cjf]

What I've come to realize over time is that by having enough cubic inches and watts to drive them subs help nail the sound of the recorded space that otherwise goes unnoticed without them.

Their ability to recreate the sound of silence or the sound of the "space" at higher SPL's really adds to the listening experience. This amplified silence helps drown out other environmental noise heard in many listening rooms (cars passing by, refrigerators running, fans blowing..etc).

In summary, they help fill the listening space with the sound of the venue that would otherwise fall on the main speakers and the amps powering them to fulfill. So I agree its not just about subs adding hit you in the chest type bass. Their value add is much more complicated to describe than just that.

 

[byper.zen]

I am just jumping on this topic... I am thinking to buy one subwoofer to reinforce my Apertura Tanagra not strong enough in this register...
What about B&W ASW610 or PV1D or Tel HT/1003 or Kef Kube 10 or 12...
I have a room of 17ft on 25ft...but not designed for music...

 

[sbnx]

I am just jumping on this topic... I am thinking to buy one subwoofer to reinforce my Apertura Tanagra not strong enough in this register...
What about B&W ASW610 or PV1D or Tel HT/1003 or Kef Kube 10 or 12...
I have a room of 17ft on 25ft...but not designed for music...

The most important thing with subwoofers is how well you integrate them with your mains. To do this the subwoofer needs to have volume, low pass crossover freq control and full phase adjustment at a minimum. Also, don't expect a 10" woofer to play down to 20Hz with a lot of output. I note that the B&W ASW610 doesn't have variable phase control and it isn't really even a 10" driver.

I would encourage you to give Rhythmik a strong look. For about the same price (~$550) you can get the L12 which is a 12" woofer. In addition to it being servo controlled it also offers a lot of adjustment knobs to help with the integration. It even offers one band of EQ to help with room modes as there is almost always one really bad one when you are below 50Hz.

 

[byper.zen]

many thanks "sbnk" for this quick valuable feedback...
i will check the Rhythmic... Some comments on the PV1D?

 

[sbnx]

many thanks "sbnk" for this quick valuable feedback...
i will check the Rhythmic... Some comments on the PV1D?

I looked up the KEF Kube and it also doesn't have variable phase control.

On the B&W PV1D. This is in a totally different price point at about $2k. You could get two Rhythmik F12's (with the Aluminum driver) for this price. I looked at the manual for the PV1D and it does seem to have all of the controls necessary. These all seem to be setup in some kind of software on your laptop. I don't know if you could have your laptop conntected and change the settings real time while you listen. If that appeals to you then you could also look SVS Subwoofers which has an app for your phone that you can control from the listening chair.

The other thing is "space". The PV1D is very compact. I don't know how much space you have in the listening area. So perhaps you are looking for something compact. Also, I don't know what you are intention is. If you are wanting extension down to 20Hz I don't think a single PV1D is going to do that. If you are just wanting to supplement the bass from, let's say, 40Hz to 70Hz.

Note that the higher you go in frequency the hard it is to get he subs to integrate with the main speakers. <40Hz is relatively easy, 40-60 Hz getting harder, 60-80Hz Hard to do seamlessly. If you add a crossover to your mains like the JL CR1 it will make integrating them much easier.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I am just jumping on this topic... I am thinking to buy one subwoofer to reinforce my Apertura Tanagra not strong enough in this register...
What about B&W ASW610 or PV1D or Tel HT/1003 or Kef Kube 10 or 12...
I have a room of 17ft on 25ft...but not designed for music...

Soyez le bienvenu a WBF!

For the same total cost, two smaller subwoofers are often better than on large one, if sound quality is what matters most. Let me explain:

The biggest problem for a subwoofer is the room. The room will cause large peaks and dips in the response of even the best subwoofer. You can move the subwoofer or move your listening chair and the peak-and-dip pattern will change, but it will not go away. You can equalize the subwoofer so that its response is smooth in the microphone location, but then the frequency response will actually be worse elsewhere in the room.

However if you add a second subwoofer, and place it in a very different location from the first, you can make a big improvement. Each subwoofer will still produce an ugly peak-and-dip pattern, but they will be DIFFERENT from each other. The SUM of these two different ugly peak-and-dip patterns will typically be almost twice as smooth as either one alone. And this improved smoothness holds up throughout the room.

Smooth bass is fast bass, because it is the peaks which make bass sound fat and slow. And as a general rule, the more subwoofers intelligently distributed around the room, the more smooth the in-room bass will be.

(I manufacture a subwoofer system that uses four small subs, so I use this idea in my business. I learned it from Earl Geddes.)

So assuming you don't need super-loud and super-deep bass (which are things that one big sub does better than two small ones), you might consider two small subs for better room interaction, because better room interaction results in better bass quality.

A mon avis.

 

[byper.zen]

Thank Duke for your suggestion and it is a bright idea... To answer to you and also to SBNX before I have an issue with the space and also for my loudspeakers... then to add 2 subwoofers will be a real challenge or I have to change completely the room and my wife...!!!bur you know the story

 

[byper.zen]

finally I decided to acquire the Real Carbon Special Subwoofer... It is expensive but fantastic...
I am really appreciate the combination between the existing configuration and this new subwoofer... Perfect integration with the right adjustment... great...
The next upgrade will be to invest in new HP Harbeth super HL5 plus... but first I have to "digest" this investment...
thank you for the good remarks and suggestions

 

[sbo6]

Nice, congrats! Clearly a great sub. Enjoy!

 

[sbnx]

Contratulations. REL makes very nice subs. I am sure you will enjoy it very much. This is light years better than the B&W, KEF etc that you had initially considered.