System Noise has a larger negative effect on sound reproduction.....

[Robh3606]

I think everybody has a good idea of what clarity is,

Clarity to me is when a vocal sounds like it's right in front of you floating in the room totally independant of the speakers.

Rob

 

[RogerD]

Clarity to me is when a vocal sounds like it's right in front of you floating in the room totally independant of where that speakers are.

Rob

Rob, How about every aspect of the recording and it increases in scale accordingly with the level of energy the performers desire.

 

[Robh3606]

Rob, How about every aspect of the recording and it increases in scale accordingly with the level of energy the performers desire.

Well it shouldn't sound forced just natural. It should also sound limitless for lack of a better word.

Rob

 

[RogerD]

Well it shouldn't sound forced just natural. It should also sound limitless for lack of a better word.

Rob

Agree and watch that term "natural".

 

[fas42]

Agree and watch that term "natural".

Roger, most people instinctively know "natural"; until I heard Adele's '21' I didn't think I was going to come across such ... unnaturalness -- but that takes the cake! I still not 100% sure it can't come good, but it will be a major effort.

Just thinking, I feel what's particularly disturbing about the album is that it's trying to be "natural", and hyped up at the same time! In particular, on my system, the intensity of the drumming at the beginning of "Rolling in the Deep" just bowls you over; it's completely out of character with the song. When a recording "fakes", or tries to, being natural your inner compass says very strongly, this is all wrong!

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Frank, these current recordings are in such stark contrast to such milestones as Kind of Blue. Sometimes I can't stop listening to it it so beautiful. I think I played 21 once and I can't remember if I made it through it. Sad.

 

[Soundproof]

In KoB you're listening to real instruments, in "21" you're listening to "can't quite put my finger on what that sound is pretending to be, some kind of wind instrument, I think". "What kind of drum is that, I wonder?" "Is that just one instrument, or several blended into one another?" "I have no idea what instrument would produce that sound."

 

[bblue]

Clarity to me is when a vocal sounds like it's right in front of you floating in the room totally independant of the speakers.

How about when the entire sound stage does that, with the vocal being a distinct point within it?

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Bill and Roger, I can certainly vouch from my own experiences that these at times seemingly bizarre variations in outcomes from tweaking in various area and ways are part of the deal when attempting to improve the quality of playback.

My take on that is, firstly a simplistic "everything depends on everything": when a particular aspect is "fixed" or altered, then it alters the balance between all the components consisting of the system, a new equilibrium or stability will reached between the elements. And you may find that this new balance is not to your liking. I have had the experience many, many times of supposedly making something work "better", and it in fact sounded worse: many times quite a bit worse. The number of times I've have gone forward, and then retraced my steps somewhat, gone forward yet again, and it's even worse again! The number of combinations and permutations rapidly spiral out of control: it's enough to drive a sane person mad. Which is perhaps what I am, at least to some degree ...

It's one reason I have been doing this type of stuff for years; you get worn out pursuing one line of experimentation, and take a rest from the whole business. I gave it all away for about 15 years at one point ...

One thing I have gained though, is a sense or instinct for what characteristics in the sound quality, the type of "distortion" so to speak, signal that progress is being made or not. To an outsider I might appear quite stupid at times, seemingly, deliberately, making the sound more obnoxious, and aggressive. However, there is a method to the "madness", the end result after a day or so, is the final determinant of success or failure.

One key indicator for me shines through, always: what's happening to "bad" recordings that I play (apart from Adele's '21' :b ). When they get better, everything gets better.

Everything depending on everything, as in your description, has a *lot* to do with the ability of each individual piece of equipment to pass the signal with minimal alteration, even if the source is seriously degraded. As the quality and stabillity of each piece of gear (mostly preamp and poweramp, + cabling) improves, playing bad source just sounds like bad source, and there is no interaction by the gear passing it. You can always take a bad recording and twiddle with things from source to output, to CHANGE its characteristics. The problem with this is that you have no ruler for what is actually correct, only how does that particular piece of bad recording sound? Does it getter 'better'? Does that mean anything to the entire chain? Not one bit, usually.

Trust me, I've followed that circular path on many an occasion in the past and am happy to say that I no longer fall prey to it. The key point in determining the transparency of a system is now *different* sources sound one to the next. Do you have some (as a group) that are all screachers that sound pretty much the same? Or another group that all have a pleasing sound but in exactly the same way? Those are signs of coloration and inaccuracy. When you can put a recording on and listen to it and clearly identify what's good and what's not right, usually unique from any other recording, you're getting very very close. You can still get fooled, but the chances are slimmer.

When I make a change now, I'll listen to a wide variety of material that I'm familiar with (and some that I'm not) to decide if each source is as unique as I'm used to hearing it. If it's more unique, I'm likely headed the right direction. If suddenly a couple of recordings have notably similar characteristics to them that I hadn't heard before, the red flag goes up. That shouldn't happen.

You get the idea, I hope. Improving on a singular bad source is probably not an improvement

--Bill

 

[Steve williams]

You get the idea, I hope. Improving on a singular bad source is probably not an improvement

He probably doesn't as we have been telling him the same thing for months but you have to realize that this is "the world of Frank as he knows it"

 

[bblue]

He probably doesn't as we have been telling him the same thing for months but you have to realize that this is "the world of Frank as he knows it"

Yeah. I'm just trying to point him in the right direction, if possible. It may not be. I do recall long ago I had that mindset for awhile.

--Bill

 

[garylkoh]

Yeah. I'm just trying to point him in the right direction, if possible. It may not be. I do recall long ago I had that mindset for awhile.

--Bill

I don't think that it's possible. For my own peace of mind, I have to just ignore him.

 

[Steve williams]

I don't think that it's possible. For my own peace of mind, I have to just ignore him.

We all need to Gary.

 

[FrantzM]

I don't think that it's possible. For my own peace of mind, I have to just ignore him.

Unfortunately the "Reply with Quotes" option makes it impossible to not get his posts from time to time...