The 2 philosophies in DAC design, hands off and hands on. Which is better?

[rsbeck]

when I chose aluminum for the negative cable, I was not prepared for the shocking improvement of my sound over the Anti-Cables I had been using.

1) Why should the introduction of aluminum cause the sound to "improve"?

2) Especially if the alleged "improvement" were like the unkinking of a hose, allowing "more music" to flow through your system?

Aluminum offers more resistance, not less, so the likelihood is that you would get less signal, not more, that you've actually mistaken a kink in your hose for an "unkink."

3) How much distance is there between your positive and your negative? If the two are separated, you may have simply created a tone control, in which case, it is even more likely that you simply mistook the attenuation of signal for the opposite, an increase in signal.

 

[rsbeck]

Just about any weirdo tweako cable can give you plus minus 0.5 db changes anywhere in the band if it is long enough (as above) and in some places even generating nearly 3db of change from flat response.

What change would you expect from changing the negative side of the cable with a higher resistance material like aluminum?

 

[JackD201]

I'm guessing what the amps see is the resistance averaged out as current alternates between + and - runs. I'm no engineer though.

 

[rsbeck]

Sounds like a pretty good guess.

I'm wondering if someone can do a rough computation and give an estimate of the audible attenuation that might be expected from introducing aluminum, but in any case, the laws of physics tell us that adding resistance can only decrease the level of signal passing through, it cannot cause an increase.

So, in the best case scenario, there has not been enough attenuation to be audible, in which case an inaudible change has been mistaken for an increase in signal and in the worst case, an audible decrease in signal has been mistaken for an increase, which is the opposite of what has been reported in the anecdotal testimonial that has been posted here.

 

[rsbeck]

The other thing I'm wondering, just as an aside, is how a less is more Zen style based on Eastern philosophy would cause one to run speaker cables with one material for the positive and aluminum for the negative.

It seems to me that Zen philosophy might cause one to use cable that offers the least resistance and capacitance.

But -- hey -- maybe that's just me.

 

[JackD201]

Maybe it's acting like some sort of impedance matching device perhaps?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I love when we are trying so hard to find an explanation for something that simply cannot make any substantial difference in what one hears ...

 

[rsbeck]

Maybe it's acting like some sort of impedance matching device perhaps?

Apogee Scintillas are low impedance speakers. Usually, low impedance speakers require more power to drive them. It seems to me that introducing higher resistance into the cables in this instance would only increase the chances of attenuating the signal and thus some frequencies.

 

[muralman1]

Two matching anecdotal testimonials does not add up to the verification of a hypothesis.

Awe contrare my good rsbeck. The reason the in like experiment is valid is because the conditions were the same. Also, if the different metals were a problem sonically the brilliant speaker designer, Leo Spiegel and friends, would have not used aluminum for five feet of negative cable. The reviews of the Apogee Scintilla, as poorly amped as they were in the beginning, garnered rave reviews.

 

[muralman1]

Apogee Scintillas are low impedance speakers. Usually, low impedance speakers require more power to drive them. It seems to me that introducing higher resistance into the cables in this instance would only increase the chances of attenuating the signal and thus some frequencies.

You are grasping at straws.

 

[muralman1]

The other thing I'm wondering, just as an aside, is how a less is more Zen style based on Eastern philosophy would cause one to run speaker cables with one material for the positive and aluminum for the negative.

It seems to me that Zen philosophy might cause one to use cable that offers the least resistance and capacitance.

But -- hey -- maybe that's just me.

In Zen you rely on your..... intuition if you will... Like to like... Al to Al.

 

[FrantzM]

muralman1

I am not sure I understand your last three posts ... You seem to equate an audition of a speaker with rigorous scientific experiment .. Could you elaborate ? I am lost ... I must say that your experiences are unusual and frankly they stretch many people belief here. mine in particular ... I am sorry if that comes as an ad hominem but you tend to present your opinions as "proofs". A little more is required to make a proof IMO.
To be on topics ... NOS are a rare breed these days and there is a reason for that .. Science

 

[amirm]

Probably a likely explanation of difference heard is due to a factor we discussed in cable thread. That existing cable connections may build up oxidation and the mere fact of swapping the cables, restores a good connection. A good test (done blindly) would be to return to old cables and see if the improved effect is still there.

 

[muralman1]

muralman1

I am not sure I understand your last three posts ... You seem to equate an audition of a speaker with rigorous scientific experiment .. Could you elaborate ? I am lost ... I must say that your experiences are unusual and frankly they stretch many people belief here. mine in particular ... I am sorry if that comes as an ad hominem but you tend to present your opinions as "proofs". A little more is required to make a proof IMO.
To be on topics ... NOS are a rare breed these days and there is a reason for that .. Science

Look, Some scientists wrote a science paper describing cold fusion, and how they got there. A separate lab tested the procedure and reported it didn't work. That is how science works. I don't see folks jumping on that procedure as, "anecdotal evidence." It's called peer review.

 

[muralman1]

Probably a likely explanation of difference heard is due to a factor we discussed in cable thread. That existing cable connections may build up oxidation and the mere fact of swapping the cables, restores a good connection. A good test (done blindly) would be to return to old cables and see if the improved effect is still there.

Sorry, no, Amir. I heard freshly switched cables, not only on my system, but others as well. The differences between the cable were easy to hear. I am talking about different geometry and carrier differences. The solid wire was easily bested by Shunyata Helicle cables. It was trounced by my cables. Cerious cables bested the Shunyata.... If smoothness is your main goal. I happen to like lively music. My cables give me lively music.

 

[FrantzM]

Look, Some scientists wrote a science paper describing cold fusion, and how they got there. A separate lab tested the procedure and reported it didn't work. That is how science works. I don't see folks jumping on that procedure as, "anecdotal evidence." It's called peer review.

muralman1

There you got me muralman1 .. Your definition of the Scientific method is rather peculiar. I am out

 

[rsbeck]

The reason the in like experiment is valid is because the conditions were the same.

Matching anecdotal testimonials does not add up to a properly set up test and verifiable results.

 

[rsbeck]

if the different metals were a problem sonically

Aluminum is a conductive metal, so the fact that it is used to conduct current proves nothing.

You claimed the insertion of an aluminum cable increased your signal, but aluminum increases resistance, which decreases signal.

So, if you noticed a difference -- something that remains unproven -- you noticed a difference from a decrease in signal and mistakenly attributed it to an increase.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

In Zen you rely on your..... intuition if you will... Like to like... Al to Al.

Dude, this whole "audio as competitive sport" mojo going on here is pretty inconsistent with Zen, but carry on...

Tim

 

[rsbeck]

Another thing that remains unanswered is the distance between the positive and negative runs in your cabling. The reason the positive and negative are usually run in close parallel is that this reduces inductance.

If the positive and negative cables are separated, inductance rises and this is also known to attenuate signal.

If inductance rises high enough, it can be audible as it will roll off frequencies. If so, this is a pretty simple, if unpredictable tone control. Unpredictable because inductance depends on the proximity of the positive and negative. The farther apart, the higher the capacitance.

If you combine higher resistance with higher inductance, you have the recipe for attenuating signal and thus certain frequencies.

Reading around through several reviews of the Scintillas, I find that at least at one point, they were wired internally with cable supplied by Monster.

Monster has gotten a bad name among audiophiles, but originally, Monster's claim to fame so to speak was based on the thickness (lower resistance) of their cables.

Each review mentions the need for high powered amps and thick speaker cables, preferably bi-wired to decrease resistance and supply more power to the power hungry speakers.

If there is aluminum wiring inside the Scintillas (I couldn't find a reference for this), this might be one of the reasons they are so hard to drive.