In my opinion, no. But the sales history that does exist is interesting to know. Obviously the best deals are ones where both buyer and seller emerge happy. You’ve got to develop your own ideas on this, and I’m sure you have.
The Case for Choosing Electronics from One Manufacturer
- Thread starter soundman
- Start date
Thank you for sharing that story. “I have generally liked the synergy that comes from staying within brand for these bits of gear.”
It’s nice to learn that when you did mix and match you were serendipitously rewarded.
I do trust my ears and those of my wife but as I wrote now at 74 I am looking for (I hate the phrase) end game pieces. The real issue for me is I appreciate the strengths of an all fill in the blank brand name. Once in an early issue of TAS HP did an analysis of the pros and cons of The One I believe it was called a Conrad Johnson amplifier on one side of the page an an Audio Research amp on the other. Then he speculated wouldn’t it be great if we could marry the strengths of both these amps into one amp? It will never happen he said. Despite people saying house sounds are becoming less and less discernible, I disagree. HP was right. Thank you too for the word synergy for the life of me I could not come up with it and yet it is the perfect adjective for what I was trying to say.
A lot of audiophiles feel cables are critically important to the sound of an audio system. I have made the case that if the manufacturer makes the whole system with the same cables (albeit different gauges) then you are not playing a game of cables as tone controls.
This assumes the companies' individual components stand up on their own as "elite" products. Linn for example was known mainly for sources - their amps and speakers are not nearly as highly regarded as their LP 12 and Sondek.
As an Audio Note owner, I tend to like their gear individually but in a system, there is a "more than the sum of the parts" aspect to it even though each component is highly regarded.
From a design aesthetic, this rings true - Their amplifiers are zero negative feedback Single Ended Triodes with as little "stuff in the way" as amplifiers get. Their CD replay is as close to a SET amplifier as digital gets. So the laser picks up the bits off the CD - it is read once - it is sent to the DAC which applies no oversampling upsampling buffering, error correction or jitter reduction - so it is read once processed and sent to the amplifier. The amplifier has no feedback (which is a form of error correction) thus these amps make no attempt to "process" the input signal to fix it up to make the input look as nice as the output. Their turntables are the same approach - the tables are no high mass - high mass turntables attempt to deaden sound but that stores energy in the platter. Their tables attempt to release energy as fast as possible. Speakers follow the approach - lightly braced - no sound deadening materials (MDF etc) that linger in highly damped speakers that store vibration and IMO slug the sound.
The system is then voiced together with their control of the overall sonic aesthetic. If nothing else - when you hear a company's complete stereo system then you have an understanding of what their designers/owners feel is the best sound (at least a saleable best sound). When I auditioned a complete Roksan system, for example, I knew what Roksan felt was the best reproduction of music (at least for the money).
Lastly, cables - my speakers are internally wired with silver AN SPx cables - you can buy the equivalent speaker cables from amp to speakers. You can buy equivalent silver ICs and you can buy the preamplifier, power amplifier, CD player, DAC which can also be internally wired with silver cables (and silver solder) with silver connectors (and silver Caps/Resistors) - the transformers are also wound with silver.
At the end of the day the logo on the box is worthless - what matters is the parts. And you're basically only as good as the weakest link.
In a mix-and-match system - you might have something like this:
CD player - internally wired with cheapo copper wires - caps from China, resistors from China - who knows what?
Turntable and arm out to your preamp wired with Nordost
Cables from source to amps (one set Tara Labs, One set Audio Note)
Tube Preamp (the designer thinks SS is caca and would never own one) - internal caps from Jensen, Hammond EI transformer copper wound. internal cable from Audioquest)
IC Cable from Preamp to Power amp (Blue Jeans)
SS Power amp (the designer thinks tubes suck and would never own one) - caps from Mundorf, Torroid transformer from China, off-the-shelf resistors (Internal cables from MIT)
Speaker cables to speakers: Mogami
Speaker internally wired with Wireworld
Then someone reviews a speaker cable and waxes poetic about how great it is - but it's basically a tone control in a soup of stuff that wasn't remotely designed by any of the designers to be used together who in fact loathe the idea their products are being sullied by the use of the other.
Or to put it simply - you can put the best Ferrari tires in the world on a Yugo - but you still only have a Yugo.
This assumes the companies' individual components stand up on their own as "elite" products. Linn for example was known mainly for sources - their amps and speakers are not nearly as highly regarded as their LP 12 and Sondek.
As an Audio Note owner, I tend to like their gear individually but in a system, there is a "more than the sum of the parts" aspect to it even though each component is highly regarded.
From a design aesthetic, this rings true - Their amplifiers are zero negative feedback Single Ended Triodes with as little "stuff in the way" as amplifiers get. Their CD replay is as close to a SET amplifier as digital gets. So the laser picks up the bits off the CD - it is read once - it is sent to the DAC which applies no oversampling upsampling buffering, error correction or jitter reduction - so it is read once processed and sent to the amplifier. The amplifier has no feedback (which is a form of error correction) thus these amps make no attempt to "process" the input signal to fix it up to make the input look as nice as the output. Their turntables are the same approach - the tables are no high mass - high mass turntables attempt to deaden sound but that stores energy in the platter. Their tables attempt to release energy as fast as possible. Speakers follow the approach - lightly braced - no sound deadening materials (MDF etc) that linger in highly damped speakers that store vibration and IMO slug the sound.
The system is then voiced together with their control of the overall sonic aesthetic. If nothing else - when you hear a company's complete stereo system then you have an understanding of what their designers/owners feel is the best sound (at least a saleable best sound). When I auditioned a complete Roksan system, for example, I knew what Roksan felt was the best reproduction of music (at least for the money).
Lastly, cables - my speakers are internally wired with silver AN SPx cables - you can buy the equivalent speaker cables from amp to speakers. You can buy equivalent silver ICs and you can buy the preamplifier, power amplifier, CD player, DAC which can also be internally wired with silver cables (and silver solder) with silver connectors (and silver Caps/Resistors) - the transformers are also wound with silver.
At the end of the day the logo on the box is worthless - what matters is the parts. And you're basically only as good as the weakest link.
In a mix-and-match system - you might have something like this:
CD player - internally wired with cheapo copper wires - caps from China, resistors from China - who knows what?
Turntable and arm out to your preamp wired with Nordost
Cables from source to amps (one set Tara Labs, One set Audio Note)
Tube Preamp (the designer thinks SS is caca and would never own one) - internal caps from Jensen, Hammond EI transformer copper wound. internal cable from Audioquest)
IC Cable from Preamp to Power amp (Blue Jeans)
SS Power amp (the designer thinks tubes suck and would never own one) - caps from Mundorf, Torroid transformer from China, off-the-shelf resistors (Internal cables from MIT)
Speaker cables to speakers: Mogami
Speaker internally wired with Wireworld
Then someone reviews a speaker cable and waxes poetic about how great it is - but it's basically a tone control in a soup of stuff that wasn't remotely designed by any of the designers to be used together who in fact loathe the idea their products are being sullied by the use of the other.
Or to put it simply - you can put the best Ferrari tires in the world on a Yugo - but you still only have a Yugo.
then you are not playing a game of cables as tone controls. Exactly!
when you hear a company's complete stereo system then you have an understanding of what their designers/owners feel is the best sound -
This is exactly what I wrote! - then you have an understanding of what their designers/owners feel is the best sound -
You evened used the analogy I used "soup" basically a tone control in a soup of stuff that wasn't remotely designed by any of the designers to be used together who in fact loathe the idea their products are being sullied by the use of the other.
Thank you for presenting the idea with a great deal more of actual supporting examples.
a "more than the sum of the parts" aspect - I believe this occurs because of the SYNERGY created, a word that Another Johnson used to describe the same thing; it is the perfect adjective to describe...
After several decades of mixing and matching preamps and amps, in the last decade, I have generally liked the synergy that comes from staying within brand for these bits of gear. However I have to admit even in this past decade, I’ve mixed and matched and on occasion I’ve been serendipitously rewarded.
You could source your entire system out of just one manufacturer and it could still sound like soup and perform no better than a Yugo. In the end it’s really about how things come together and whether things ultimately work for us or not. That one person is navigating all the choices for us doesn’t guarantee the best outcome. Some like having others make all the decisions for them and others don’t. Mostly this pursuit is about making choices through time and for many of us that is a fundamental part of the enjoyment. Off the rack systems are good for some but not necessarily then the best outcomes. They certainly can be the easier and quicker way.
Last edited:
You could, anything is possible; nothing is guaranteed; what I am suggesting is there is a better chance for synergy to happen when it is born out of the mind of the same designer. A teacher once said only speak from your own experience. Everything else is conjecture and leads to illusions so speaking from my own experience at audio shows, not theory, the rooms that were the most cohesive, spoke as one voice were rooms where the majority of components came from the same brand; that I preferred one voice over another is not the point. All VTL, all VAC, all BAT, all Lamm, all Pass Labs, to name a few; all were memorable meaning they left an impression long after we left, because each was do distinct.
But it could just be a worse sound… everything should be judged on its merits in summation. You want that quick solution so that’s perfect… others like to find their own pathway and just aren’t as risk averse.
I’m not sure about the teacher biz… I’m a teacher but I don’t give my design students the solutions in a single neat package but show them process, share what’s possible, and encourage them to work through and develop their own outcomes and learn and enjoy the process.
Making choices and enjoying engaging in the alchemy of our own making and more curious pathways is a good thing for many but some want safer more direct routes… all can be good but none are actually guaranteed to be the best way to go.
The teacher in finding nemo said Just Keep Swimming, as Nemo starts on his audio journey
If you had visited the rooms I mentioned you would understand what I am saying, yet again you keep saying "it could just be a worse sound."
This is philosophy and as a Guru in India is fond of saying "philosophy does not bake bread!"
I am talking about first hand experience, not what could happen.
I am not risk averse.
FWIW I was on the National Endowment for the Arts Visiting Artist in the Schools Program in photography and I was selected to be one of five people in the country to intern at the International Center of Photography Museum in NYC so I understand "process" and exploring what's possible.
Your intimating that "some want safer routes" however unintended is offensive.
When I opt to wanting to experience what various inventors, point of view is regarding sound that is not wanting "a safer route." That is receptivity to the myriad number of singular genius minds extant.
We are going to Korea hopefully next fall and I am looking forward to experiencing an all Alnic system.
Audio Note offers many different levels but one thing is certain regardless of the level a person opts in it is still the Audio Note flavor and that is the way THEY intend for customers to experience them.
Of course there are those who are cynical and say of course they want that; I in turn want to meet these great minds in their purest expression and that means an entire system as they see it, THEIR vision.
That does not me or them for that matter risk averse; you are being argumentative.
All Audio NoteTM products are graded according into a system of seven levels, each of which primarily places a product according to its sonic performance, this is meant to serve as a guideline for our customers
My system is mostly Gryphon electronics and Stealth Audio cables. Both brands seem transparent, no color added. It seems nice.
But what if regular listening to such a system could result in drain bamage?
Shucks.
But what if regular listening to such a system could result in drain bamage?
Shucks.
I came to the same theory AN came to via trial and error for over a decade before I auditioned them (albeit not in the words). @the sound of Tao is correct both that a one-manufacturer system may not be for you and that a mix-and-match system can work well - it simply comes down to your own experiences and how you hear things - obviously based on what I own - I hear things like Peter Qvortrup hears things. It also helped that I heard the gear before I had ever heard of the company - they were a complete unknown when I auditioned their system.
But this is sort of how people are - if the sound grabs you over what you've heard previously (as it had for me) then you're a little more into "buying in" to what they have to say about why their approach works. I am not one for the hocus pocus stuff and that's why if I had read their babble before listening - I suspect I would go into the auditions biased heavily against it. I watched their ten-part factory tour and when Andy Whittle (lead designer of Rogers speakers) - AN's part-time marketing director talks about listening to the microstructures of different "waxes" they apply to their transformers I sort of roll my eyes and chuckle to myself that that's just flat out silly. On the other hand, I have heard their amps in a few systems and those systems have been the best systems I have ever heard so hell maybe that wax does matter - maybe they know something others don't know about wax. I still think it's silly but results are results. And I have Andy's AX Two speakers that he designed for Audio Note. At the same time I had the much ballyhooed KEF LS-50 that cost a whopping 50% more money - looks better - is built better - got product of the year blah blah blah. Had the KEF for 4 years - and sold it - the AX Two is just a flat-out better-sounding speaker. Synergy? Could be.
The problem with synergy again is that this is not about matching brand names - it's about matching the quality of the parts inside the box. An AN Silver wound transformer with AN Silver caps, Black Gate Caps or Kaisei Caps in their preamp is going to match those exact same parts found in the Transport and DAC and Power amp to a tee. Moreover, all of it is designed to work together - they are listening and evaluating and engineering it all to work and sound best together. It is not going to match the "whatever" design skill of Power amp maker A with the "whatever" design skill and "whatever parts most companies don't list" from Preamp maker B with the same for DAC maker C and so on.
AN is not alone in this but I see more partnerships than doing it yourself - Bryston has Bryston speakers for example but the speakers are made by Axiom for Bryston. McIntosh turntables are made by Clearaudio for McIntosh. Rega makes NAD turntables this sort of thing. Thus, there is a difference between a one-brand system and a one-brand NAME system. The Logo on the outside of the NAD turntable may say NAD but it is a Rega so it's not a one-make system.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Exactly it is the synergies of your listening environment and the audio chain. Only thing matched (from one mfr) in my system are my seasonal Gold Note PA-10 monoblocks (summer use) and my SPL phono-pre and preamplifier. I am absolutely in love with both my systems.
Well I just came across this YouTube channel from Korea and before everyone starts piling on oh you can’t discern shit from YT it’s compressed and moreover it’s digital I will say since where I live brick and mortar stores are far and few between YT was very helpful regarding sifting and sorting components for a short list to travel to audition. There are many people who are doing it very well ( not speaking about Jay’s Audio Lab). My wife has great ears and as we we watched these compare and contrast videos sure it was not the same as actually being there but…There is a channel in Hamburg that does this. It was easy to decide I did not like the Hegel vs something else. Here is an all Gryphon system no commentary not saying I wish I could have it but there are 4 or 5 more videos the same system playing different music. Elsewhere an all Mark Levinson and all VTL and all Audio Research… But Christopher it’s different music. No, I argue it is easy to discern from how the music is presented if you like the underlying approach in the gear. A long time reviewer wrote to me
“Gryphon has some of the most analog sounding components of any brand.” Enjoy; I did
“Gryphon has some of the most analog sounding components of any brand.” Enjoy; I did
Perhaps many do recommend you use matched electronics from their brand alone and in today's market that is what is commonly the case. I myself do not always recommend a matched set. From my experience It depends on the rest of a client's system and what sound they are trying to achieve. Agreed matching an amplifier and preamplifier from different manufacturers is not difficult.
FYI, AudioGon has a Bluebook you can subscribe to. They ingest data from prior sales and create an average selling price. The used market is indeed variable and inconsistent.
A good sounding system will sound good on a YouTube video. A bad sounding system will sound bad on a YouTube video. You and your wife are making the most of the medium and that is smart and will help you narrow down your choices.
The irony is that we listen to recorded music and really on videos for many aspects of our life but when it comes to them shedding some truth about the sound of recorded system many dismiss the effectiveness of videos to convey the gestalt of a system’s sound. If you take a closer look it is usually those with bad sounding systems or those who refuse to share their system videos that carry that flag.
Good luck in your search and hats off to you for using current science & technologies to your advantage!
Depending on the room and (most importantly) the mic-setup > proper directional stereo vs iphone.
The guys from Hifi Immersion are an example.
As regards electronics from a single brand: there's potentially some synergy to be gained, especially with brands such as Audio Note.
But if you're into 'DAC-Direct' with amps from i.e. Pass Labs, you've got to look elsewhere.
I readily admit I've always heard a certain synchronicity when using an amp and preamp from the same manufacturer; they've always sounded just a bit better when used together than when mixing and matching.
This makes sense when you consider they were likely designed together, but it also doesn't mean you have to go that route, nor do you have to buy both at the same time.
For example, for years I had a Mark Levinson No. 380S preamp and a ML No. 334 amplifier.
I demoed an Ayre KX-R preamp and absolutely loved it (I never knew my ML preamp was a bit dark until I tried the Ayre.)
I purchased the Ayre and happily used it in conjunction with my ML for a few years.
Then Ayre came out with their "Twenty" updates, and I tried a KX-R Twenty and it was ridiculously better than the original KX-R.
My dealer also kindly loaned me a pair of MX-R Twenties while I was demoing the KX-R Twenty, and the sound was one I knew I had to have, exactly like that.
So I got the Twenty upgrade for the KX-R and also ordered a pair of MX-R Twenties.
I've since demoed a few other preamps (ARC Ref 6 SE, Boulder 1110), but none have had the (warning: audiophile cliché incoming) magic of the KX-R Twenty/MX-R Twenty combo.
I've thought about demoing a D'Agostino Momentum Pre sometime, but at $42,500, I don't want to know.
This makes sense when you consider they were likely designed together, but it also doesn't mean you have to go that route, nor do you have to buy both at the same time.
For example, for years I had a Mark Levinson No. 380S preamp and a ML No. 334 amplifier.
I demoed an Ayre KX-R preamp and absolutely loved it (I never knew my ML preamp was a bit dark until I tried the Ayre.)
I purchased the Ayre and happily used it in conjunction with my ML for a few years.
Then Ayre came out with their "Twenty" updates, and I tried a KX-R Twenty and it was ridiculously better than the original KX-R.
My dealer also kindly loaned me a pair of MX-R Twenties while I was demoing the KX-R Twenty, and the sound was one I knew I had to have, exactly like that.
So I got the Twenty upgrade for the KX-R and also ordered a pair of MX-R Twenties.
I've since demoed a few other preamps (ARC Ref 6 SE, Boulder 1110), but none have had the (warning: audiophile cliché incoming) magic of the KX-R Twenty/MX-R Twenty combo.
I've thought about demoing a D'Agostino Momentum Pre sometime, but at $42,500, I don't want to know.
I used to have Mark Levinson No.333 and a couple of my friends used to have other models like No.33H, No.335. Unfortunately my experience with ML is different than yours @BillK
I remember how bad No.33H sounds when No.32 pre is added. Same goes for ML cd players (No.31 transport and No.30.6 DAC or No.39) added to the chain. I finally matched No.333 with Gryphon 4 piece line-stage and Nagra PL-L preamps and my friend matched No.33H with Wavac 3 piece pre and Audio Consulting silver rock. IME a ML component doesn’t like other ML component while a single ML component (amp, pre or cd player) can sound very good when matched with other brand.
IMHO unlike ML, Kondo components work very well when all electronics and cables are Kondo. That’s what me and my friends do for the last 10 years.
I remember how bad No.33H sounds when No.32 pre is added. Same goes for ML cd players (No.31 transport and No.30.6 DAC or No.39) added to the chain. I finally matched No.333 with Gryphon 4 piece line-stage and Nagra PL-L preamps and my friend matched No.33H with Wavac 3 piece pre and Audio Consulting silver rock. IME a ML component doesn’t like other ML component while a single ML component (amp, pre or cd player) can sound very good when matched with other brand.
IMHO unlike ML, Kondo components work very well when all electronics and cables are Kondo. That’s what me and my friends do for the last 10 years.
Last edited:
Similar threads
