The Future of Turntables ...

[jeromelang]

20 years from now, I'll plug myself into the world wide web and log onto mikel's memory bank and have his archived perception of Dave Brubeck's Time Out performance through his (then) super duper turntable system streamed directly into my brain....

 

[mep]

They have software plugins now that will give you random ticks/pops and surface noise!

And that is exactly what every person who loves analog wants to hear? I don't think so. Digital gimmicks to bring you the worst that analog has to offer. How cool.

 

[flez007]

20 years from now, I'll plug myself into the world wide web and log onto mikel's memory bank and have his archived perception of Dave Brubeck's Time Out performance through his (then) super duper turntable system streamed directly into my brain....

Something like it...

I ask my teenager son about sonic differences between an A or B turntable, he justs likes how cool they look, but never bothers to learn more.

My prediction is that TT will become a thing of the past, www content, randomly generated playlists based on preferences, places or mood replicated in real time to mobile devices will rule.

 

[rockitman]

I will still be listening to my vinyl and tape for the next 40 years I have on this planet, hopefully. That will put me at 90. The future looks good for turntables in my eyes.

 

[amirm]

I know there are LP simulations right now. But the type I am thinking about would fully model a suite of turntables and let you do cool things like trying different tone arms, cartridges, etc. The modeling can be done today but I suspect fully accurate physics model would be too slow to run in real time. In 40 years though, the computational power of CPUs with hundreds of cores should easily enable that. Yes, I am convinced it is the transformation that LP provides is what give it is appeal. I will prove it in 40 years .

BTW, someone once asked me how movies will be in 100 years. I gave a similar answer. I said that there will no longer be any live actors in them. It will be fully animated in a computer, mimicking alive of dead actors of our/director's choosing.

 

[Bill Hart]

I love these Jules Verne- Jetson's visions of the future. People will be flying around in little private spaceships. Like the old cartoons, an eye-dropper of water on a pill will magically turn into a steak dinner, with all the trimmings. I'm more pessimistic. Ever see the movie, Things to Come? (It's a wonderful soundtrack by the way, and on the old HP list). I have this vision of a cranky old, dirty looking, unshaven hermit, sealed up in his rotting, leaky, grime-coated 20th century house, powering up old analog gear from stolen power patched together with extension cords off the grid, listening to musty copies of vinyl over a set of beat-up headphones that are held together with gaffer's tape.


PS: And he's probably listening to the Village People.

 

[NorthStar]

They have software plugins now that will give you random ticks/pops and surface noise!

-----Best one of the week! :b

 

[MylesBAstor]

I know there are LP simulations right now. But the type I am thinking about would fully model a suite of turntables and let you do cool things like trying different tone arms, cartridges, etc. The modeling can be done today but I suspect fully accurate physics model would be too slow to run in real time. In 40 years though, the computational power of CPUs with hundreds of cores should easily enable that. Yes, I am convinced it is the transformation that LP provides is what give it is appeal. I will prove it in 40 years .

BTW, someone once asked me how movies will be in 100 years. I gave a similar answer. I said that there will no longer be any live actors in them. It will be fully animated in a computer, mimicking alive of dead actors of our/director's choosing.

A small sample

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/articles/analoguewarmth.htm

http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1872

http://www.uaudio.com/store/special-processing/studer-a800-tape-recorder.html

 

[NorthStar]

---Amir, I'm near you regarding TT's sound of the future, and also Films' projections.
...But not completely.

The nostalgic appeal will never disappear IMO. And we'll have the future hardcore audiophiles and videophiles, and/in all those jazzy forums of the Internet. :b

* I wish I could still be there...

 

[MylesBAstor]

I will still be listening to my vinyl and tape for the next 40 years I have on this planet, hopefully. That will put me at 90. The future looks good for turntables in my eyes.

Reports of the turntable's death have been greatly exaggerated. 30 years AD, more high-end turntables than ever are being made and there are more than enough titles being released each month to keep the ball rolling. Also there's never been a time in audio where there's been so many really good inexpensive tables. As long as there's LPs being pressed, there will be tts. Plus as previously mentioned, there's how many millions of LPs on the planet?

 

[puroagave]

looking at my nephew in college who loves music and plays in a band has NEVER owned a cd let alone lp and practically never pays for downloads! i have to wonder whether physical media will be produced in any format 20-yrs from now let alone 40. the fact TTs are still made today and records pressed is imho, short lived and faddish -- not an easy truth to accept from someone like me that loves vinyl! who are we kidding, 20-somerthing year olds (audiophiles of the future) are not buying $50 audiophile pressings let alone 20 dollar ones when you can get the music for free! the bump in the vinyl business has come in the last 10 to 15-yrs from the well-heeled audiophile looking to add another gadget to the arsenal - the proof is they often own way more CDs than LPs, anecdotal as this seems, this is what i hear/see of the recent converts to LP that i meet.

I predict there will be people listening to vinyl in 40 yrs just like enthusiasts today that love 'vintage' or any other esoteric hobby. the future in 40-yrs is multi-channel, high-def digital. the audiophile of the future will look at LPs and 2-channel audio in general as a primitive format still embraced by a very small group hrdcore (stubborn?) enthusiasts and the TT as an overwrought, low-tech contraption used to play them on

 

[NorthStar]

---That pretty much describes it all Rob! :b

 

[Raffles]

I know there are LP simulations right now. But the type I am thinking about would fully model a suite of turntables and let you do cool things like trying different tone arms, cartridges, etc. The modeling can be done today but I suspect fully accurate physics model would be too slow to run in real time. In 40 years though, the computational power of CPUs with hundreds of cores should easily enable that. Yes, I am convinced it is the transformation that LP provides is what give it is appeal.

Hello amir

I have the feeling that today's computing power probably would be up to the job - a desktop PC is astoundingly powerful and doesn't need to get out of first gear for most audio processing tasks. After all, you can run a full 64 channel recording studio with effects on your PC these days - but you may be right. I am more concerned with people's in-built perception of 'digital' vs. 'analog'. If people think they can hear a difference between an LP and a digital recording of an LP, then it's not a question of processing power, but something intrinsic in the nature of digital vs. analogue itself (or the marketing thereof!).

As far as I can tell, we can model a system such as a turntable/tonearm/cartridge without necessarily understanding it: it is a case of multidimensional, nonlinear processing but because we think we know what the 'training' input is and can measure the output (with the complicating factor of noise and clicks), we can create a multidimensional surface that allows us to generalise to what the output would be for any source material. Variables such as tracking pressure would be inputs i.e. If we trained such a system with two tracking pressures, the system would enable us to interpolate to any tracking pressure in between. In the case of LP, there are additional factors such as crosstalk, noise, clicks and hum that we might wish to omit, but on the other hand may be cherished by the vinyl fraternity. I suspect they might have to be generated by a separate system; and I don't think the noise would simply be 'noise' laid over the top, but would also be modulated somewhat by the audio content.

As you say, the better, more scientific alternative is to try to understand the mechanics of every element of the system, and to make a model of each. This would include such factors as the 'graininess' of the PVC that makes up the LP, thus generating noise from first principles, and simulating the audible degradation that occurs in tracks near the middle of an LP as opposed to its edges. Would the simulation incorporate options for gradual stylus wear, LP surface wear/dust/cleaning? Rumble, wow flutter etc. would presumably be intrinsic for each turntable model.

A controversial aspect would be the difference between mastering for digital and LP: in some ways an LP master may be 'inferior' to the digital version - material for LP may be pre-processed to prevent cutting and playback problems (treble reduced above 16 kHz, strong bass has to be mixed to mono etc.) or may be recorded and produced in such a way as to be intrinsically suitable for vinyl pressing, while the digital version may be more dynamic originally but compressed for the iPod generation to listen to in noisy environments; it may not be possible to get hold of a suitable digital version to transform into the LP simulation. (Maybe there would be a new premium price service where you could download '.RAW' versions of each album.)

Here's a question: would you attempt to simulate the cabling between turntable and phono input? In order to do it, you'd need to model it, and it may become apparent that there is no known difference between low and high cost cables...

 

[NorthStar]

---Sooo, is part of the future to simulate (reproducing, faking), older reproductive electronic/mechanical audio devices, like Turntables?

Because after all, we have the technologies and the will.

_____________________

Is there a future in Analog? ...Say forty years from now?
Or is Digital the real leader? ...And that will get better & better?

P.S. Good post above Raffles.

 

[rockitman]

---Sooo, is part of the future to simulate (reproducing, faking), older reproductive electronic/mechanical audio devices, like Turntables?

Because after all, we have the technologies and the will.

I highly doubt it. Digital still has to figure out how to capture the timbral accuracy, sound stage and spatial cues of analog masters in the a/d process. If they had it right, vinyl and tape would be dead. Now for music mastered originally in digital, there is no need for vinyl and tape counterparts. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[NorthStar]

---Christian, I think that Amir and Bruce might add somethin' to dat. :b

 

[mmakshak]

Without understanding what makes it sound the way we do, we can simply record the output (of a particular LP and particular turntable setup on a particular day) digitally. Do you think that a digital recording done this way is already 'transparent'?

I heard one example of an album recorded digitally(the way you mention), and it was hard(I couldn't tell.) to hear(or feel) any difference. Alex of APL did this. Also, I heard the digital recordings of both Fremer's Continuum and that expensive Clearaudio(no longer made), and they sounded like analog(one recording was at around 192khz, and the other was at a higher number[3xx khz, I believe). I do know that many cd's(made after around 2000) coming from old analog tapes seem to sound better. I do not know if the relaxation part of listening to analog is maintained by recording it digitally.