The man himself..

[fas42]

This makes me more skeptical than most but I never gave Vince a hard time. I was always happy for him. If Vince was given a hard time, it was more I believe because of his penchant for being, shall I say, absolutely certain all the time

Never fear, Jack, you're always a perfect gentleman (almost) ...

I may have hit a new high and am currently floating on cloud nine but I can't in good conscience say I've got perfection even if many people have heard my system and expressed their desire to move into my basement permanently As both the system and myself are settling down and the emotions akin to a "crush" are beginning to subside, I am again hearing areas that could use some fine adjustments.

There ain't no such thing as perfection! But it certainly sounds if you have made a major leap forward, though I fear if you have too many areas where you can make adjustments these will disturb the chance of always getting really top notch reproduction.

Huhhh!? Well, all my experience has shown me that everything that allows you to twiddle with things is a weakness, and the better the system is capable of being, the more these weaknesses can rear their ugly heads, get in the way of the good sound. So if you find that that initial euphoria is evaporating it may not just be you, it may be the system starting to slip backward.

Why do I say that? Because this very thing has happened to me over and over and over again ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Nah, it's definitely possible but remember psychoacoustics and psychology? It could just as well be me sliding backwards as it is the system. Mood plays a big part of the appreciation of any artistic medium. Hanging a painting with only one lighting option does not guarantee the painting will be as beautiful every time you look at it. Sometimes it is more satisfying to look at things in various lights to keep ourselves honest no?

Where are the amp pics? There, not a gentleman.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It really boils down to implementation again Tim. As we know, every solution creates it's own problems. In the case of a self powered loudspeaker with that many plate amps, granted the plate amps are all very low in distortion and are neutral (that alone is a big one there) we have to look at the configuration required to give flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz let alone 100kHz to 16Hz. One plate amp for the 15 inch sub alone is a 1kW one. The midbass amps would need to be 300 to 500 watts, the mids which are 100dB efficient you could do with very little, same for the tweeters. Still, how are you going to distribute power among them to make sure each are getting the amperage they require from the wall exactly when they need them? Each AC to DC power transformer begins to resemble the inefficiency of inductors if they are sharing the same line even if it is a 20A one. The transformers are converting electrical power to heat, same banana. On a heavy bass transient, the sub plate amp would rob the tweeter amp of power. Sounds familiar. To fix this you'd have to multiply the power inlets and have multiple power cords running into more lines. Suddenly external active makes a lot more sense and actually so does a well implemented passive crossover. Not all "overbuilt" amps are expensive. We're not so sensitive in the deep bass region so a monster QSC, Crown or Crest would do a great job for relatively little money for that.

There are differences between proper XOs and what you will normally find. Most glaring is the use of thin trace PCBs to cut costs. The use of point to point wiring or heavy trace PCBs alone cuts down on a lot of non-linearities and electrical inneficiency. Also, we have to remember that caps don't just block DC, they are energy storage devices that if looked at closely bear more of a resemblance to batteries than anything else. Just like the caps in an amp or an overspec'd Toroid on an amp, they release needed energy and allow for headroom. A proper passive XO will have paralleled or bypassed caps of different values, like what Gary does on his amps, for both large and fast discharge ability. The downside is, again like a battery, caps need time to get charged up. It's the same thing for amps where charging up goes hand in hand with thermal stability, aka "warmed up". I'm getting dangerously close to divulging some proprietary knowledge here so I'll shut my trap. Whew.

I do not disagree with you on small and medium actives but big actives are a different story. We've had this discussion before I think

I don't ever remember having it in that much detail. You make sense, but then I wonder how Linkwitz gets such fabulous, room-filling, paradigm-defying clarity out of his big actives (not plates, external, but nowhere near the kind of power you're calling for). Probably implementation again. Choice of drivers? More efficient design? I'm certainly not smart enough to figure it all out which is why I buy instead of build,

Tim

 

[fas42]

Jack, I'm with Tim on this: it's quality, not quantity. I've heard many massive amps over the years that fall apart soundwise well before they deliver their rated power. A good 20 watt amp will annihilate a so-so 200 watt unit, and there are plenty of the latter around, it seems. If you have speakers which are 96dB, say, and a decent 60W amp it will be deafeningly loud; and if it is more than that, it is an excellent amp and sorted out system it will be audio nirvana ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Jack, I'm with Tim on this: it's quality, not quantity. I've heard many massive amps over the years that fall apart soundwise well before they deliver their rated power. A good 20 watt amp will annihilate a so-so 200 watt unit, and there are plenty of the latter around, it seems. If you have speakers which are 96dB, say, and a decent 60W amp it will be deafeningly loud; and if it is more than that, it is an excellent amp and sorted out system it will be audio nirvana ...

Frank

No, you're not with Tim on that one Frank, you misunderstood. I was saying that amps matched to individual drivers often don't need the sheer grunt and current to do the job of a high-end amp built to face any load that might come along. But I have 325 watts for each woofer, 75 for each tweeter. Headroom is, IMO, probably the single most important amp/speaker relationship attribute. I wouldn't use a 20 watt amp on much of anything.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Orions are external actives and kinda "medium" sized without their accompanying subs. A good buddy Abe had them for a while and while he swore by them (I never got to hear 'em, Abe lives in California) he also said he used an un-expensive but still robustly built multichannel amp (ATI IIRC) with the supplied active crossover to good effect albeit an Odeon was on his wishlist. One of Linkwitz' vendors who sell Orions already assembled go to show with the high value but also very robust Bryston amps. The size of the room dictates the size of the amps. My room is over 830sq/ft, my estimates would be well below what I stated if it were smaller. Even on paper the Orion is a very good OB Dipole design (there's the clue to the fabulous "room filling" sound) that uses very good parts. I'm betting it wouldn't sound as good if it used a budget active XO though so a big part of the magic has got to be in the active box. Albert's VR designs are super cardioid and so, like dipoles are room filling. They do not cancel at the sides though but instead at the rear corners. I'm running my rear subs in dipole mode but can be switched to monopole. I lived with planars exclusively for 3 years so room filling sound was not something I wanted to give up. I did miss being able to play stupid loud (on occasion ) so I set out looking for dynamic speakers that could do the big soundfield thing without fear of breaking panels.

Some drivers just really need more juice than others, I guess the Orion's magnesium SEAS Excel midrange drivers, which are from the same line as the midbass woofers on my own speakers, are one of those. I know mine like plenty of juice. At least 200wpc into 4 ohms for a paralled 8 ohm pair. Mo' is better tho.

 

[fas42]

Sometimes it is more satisfying to look at things in various lights to keep ourselves honest no?

Where are the amp pics? There, not a gentleman.

I will just say, if the system is working correctly, it will always have the Wow! factor: if that fades and everything sounds a bit tired, a bit flat, then it's electronics out of kilter, not your brain. Having wrestled with this bloody stuff for 26 years I think I've got a bit of a handle on it ...

No, I'll just post some sexy MRI images of that mucky grey stuff, that's about as good as it gets at the moment!

Frank

 

[JackD201]

You're confusing me Frank, the assumption IS that a quality amplifier is used. Tim and I weren't discussing that, just the pros and cons of passive, semi-active, active internal and active external designs given varying loudspeaker configurations depending on typical user requirements not limited to just sonics.

 

[JackD201]

I will just say, if the system is working correctly, it will always have the Wow! factor: if that fades and everything sounds a bit tired, a bit flat, then it's electronics out of kilter, not your brain. Having wrestled with this bloody stuff for 26 years I think I've got a bit of a handle on it ...

No, I'll just post some sexy MRI images of that mucky grey stuff, that's about as good as it gets at the moment!

Frank

I dunno Frank, that's where we'll just have to disagree. I like roller coasters but riding the same roller coaster for the nth time is never like the first. It's the same roller coaster. People get used to WOW and when they do it becomes their own personal references/benchmarks. I wanted to use another example but this is a family site. Hahahahaha.

 

[fas42]

No, you're not with Tim on that one Frank, you misunderstood. I was saying that amps matched to individual drivers often don't need the sheer grunt and current to do the job of a high-end amp built to face any load that might come along. But I have 325 watts for each woofer, 75 for each tweeter. Headroom is, IMO, probably the single most important amp/speaker relationship attribute. I wouldn't use a 20 watt amp on much of anything.

Tim

Yes, you have plenty of power for the job, and you should be able to go "stupid loud" without any trouble. A reasonable quality amp will do the job here: crossovers inflict nastier loads which upset amps without good feedback circuits and power supplies, hence the headaches most people have with ambitious speakers and less sophisticated amps. Unfortunately headroom can be used as an excuse for electronics not really sorted out properly, a bit like saying a car might go 120mph but it gets mighty scary by the time you hit 90.

Steve's Lamm based system demonstrates that well sorted out, low power amps are easily up to the job provided they keep out of the bass area.

Frank

 

[fas42]

You're confusing me Frank, the assumption IS that a quality amplifier is used. Tim and I weren't discussing that, just the pros and cons of passive, semi-active, active internal and active external designs given varying loudspeaker configurations depending on typical user requirements not limited to just sonics.

Trouble is, there's quality and there's quality. I've heard Krells and Mark Levinsons show the strain, they don't clip but they go harsh, subtly compress, lose the ability to handle the treble when you put the pressure on. Once you recognise the characteristics you can pick it every time. XO's do a lot of this damage to the amps here, so actives will always win out, all else being equal.

And yes, I would go for active external as the best overall solution, one of my "one of these days" projects on the bench ...

Frank

 

[naturephoto1]

I wouldn't use a 20 watt amp on much of anything.

Tim

Tim,

Maybe my system is a special case for this. But, with my extremely efficient passively crossed over OMA New Yorker horn speakers (104.5 to 105 dB/1w/1m) (compression horn tweeter/midrange and 2 15" conventional high efficiency woofers) I am able to easily get by with whatever bearable volume with my 25 watt class A First Watt M2 power amp. But, my room is only 19' 4" W X 14' 7" D X 9' H; I have a lot of Acoustic Room Treatments; my upgraded ARC LS10 linestage now runs through my upgraded Onkyo 5508 Pre/Pro for 2 channel playback; multichannel playback is all provided by the upgraded Onkyo 5508; and Audyssey in the upgraded Onkyo 5508 is now actively crossing over the OMA New Yorker speakers for both 2 channel and multichannel playback at 50 Hz to feed anything lower to the 2 18" Epik conquest subwoofers with 1000 watt Bash plate amps.

Rich

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Maybe my system is a special case for this.

Probably more of a preference thing on my part. Maybe even a paranoia thing; I fear clipping, and just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean it's not out to get me. Seriously, if you're going to run a low-power amp, super-efficient horns are probably the way to go. On the other hand, the fact that it can get loud enough to drive you from the room doesn't mean that it's not running out of headroom on peaks, and just because you're not hearing any obvious distortion doesn't mean you're not clipping. It could be limiting your dynamic...no, wait a minute, you said horns. They have their compromises as do all transducers, but dynamic range is usually not on the list. OK, so you probably don't need to share my personal fears.

ON EDIT: My first "hi-fi" was Altec Lansing Valencias driven by a 45 watt integrated amp. That was loud. I've also had Klipsch La Scalas. Louder still. Probably not even close to today's SOTA horns, but I loved them in the day.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Trouble is, there's quality and there's quality. I've heard Krells and Mark Levinsons show the strain, they don't clip but they go harsh, subtly compress, lose the ability to handle the treble when you put the pressure on. Once you recognise the characteristics you can pick it every time. XO's do a lot of this damage to the amps here, so actives will always win out, all else being equal.

And yes, I would go for active external as the best overall solution, one of my "one of these days" projects on the bench ...

Frank

Actually Jack was discussing all of that while I was trying to keep up and desperately Googling the hard stuff.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Trouble is, there's quality and there's quality. I've heard Krells and Mark Levinsons show the strain, they don't clip but they go harsh, subtly compress, lose the ability to handle the treble when you put the pressure on. Once you recognise the characteristics you can pick it every time. XO's do a lot of this damage to the amps here, so actives will always win out, all else being equal.

And yes, I would go for active external as the best overall solution, one of my "one of these days" projects on the bench ...

Frank

I don't know how you can ignore the drivers themselves when it comes to the distortion reduction equation and put all the attention on the amplifiers Frank. You've got break up modes and thermal distortion to name just two of the biggies. A capable amp will not negate these problems. You'll have to address the drivers themselves and if you've gone as far as you can go, manipulate the signal itself. You might even have to go feed forward. When a system is running the whole enchilada is running together. You can't break it down into parts. When a driver runs out of steam it's always a reaction to the load, which is the driver. It doesn't matter if it's passive or active. Active systems croak too, just not as early, all things being equal.

 

[fas42]

I don't know how you can ignore the drivers themselves when it comes to the distortion reduction equation and put all the attention on the amplifiers Frank. You've got break up modes and thermal distortion to name just two of the biggies. A capable amp will not negate these problems. You'll have to address the drivers themselves and if you've gone as far as you can go, manipulate the signal itself. You might even have to go feed forward. When a system is running the whole enchilada is running together. You can't break it down into parts. When a driver runs out of steam it's always a reaction to the load, which is the driver. It doesn't matter if it's passive or active. Active systems croak too, just not as early, all things being equal.

Jack, Jack, you haven't been listening to me!! I know people here laugh at this as being ridiculous and impossible, but my miserable HT system with its 20W amps and el cheapo 90dB speakers can pump out a volume that's absolutely deafening with the right recording: that is, one that's been recorded with a very high average level. I mean deafening in the sense that I have to speak right into the ear of the person next to me for them to understand me. And the speakers aren't complaining, there is no obvious audible distortion, not one tiny little bit. What has happened on the odd occasion is that the amp's internal thermal protection units have cut in, the heat dissipation was too much for the heatsinks -- the electronics called uncle first.

Your speakers are immensely more capable than mine, so I'm sure there are no issues there for you. With the new setup, can you put on some powerful solo piano work, Brendel say, and wind up the volume higher and higher with no problems, till it is at least as loud as the real thing, if not a significant amount more?

Frank

 

[MylesBAstor]

Jack, Jack, you haven't been listening to me!! I know people here laugh at this as being ridiculous and impossible, but my miserable HT system with its 20W amps and el cheapo 90dB speakers can pump out a volume that's absolutely deafening with the right recording: that is, one that's been recorded with a very high average level. I mean deafening in the sense that I have to speak right into the ear of the person next to me for them to understand me. And the speakers aren't complaining, there is no obvious audible distortion, not one tiny little bit. What has happened on the odd occasion is that the amp's internal thermal protection units have cut in, the heat dissipation was too much for the heatsinks -- the electronics called uncle first.

Your speakers are immensely more capable than mine, so I'm sure there are no issues there for you. With the new setup, can you put on some powerful solo piano work, Brendel say, and wind up the volume higher and higher with no problems, till it is at least as loud as the real thing, if not a significant amount more?

Frank

I think Mark beat you to it.

 

[mep]

I know people here laugh at this as being ridiculous and impossible, but my miserable HT system with its 20W amps and el cheapo 90dB speakers can pump out a volume that's absolutely deafening with the right recording: that is, one that's been recorded with a very high average level. I mean deafening in the sense that I have to speak right into the ear of the person next to me for them to understand me.

Very high average level means you are listening to a very compressed recording.

And the speakers aren't complaining, there is no obvious audible distortion, not one tiny little bit. What has happened on the odd occasion is that the amp's internal thermal protection units have cut in, the heat dissipation was too much for the heatsinks -- the electronics called uncle first.

This is the part where people here laugh wondering whether your speakers really can withstand this type of punishment without distorting greatly.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Very high average level means you are listening to a very compressed recording.



This is the part where people here laugh wondering whether your speakers really can withstand this type of punishment without distorting greatly.

You suppose someone is actually wondering?

Tim

 

[fas42]

You suppose someone is actually wondering?

Tim

Tim, it's all technically possible, no magic involved. For the n'th time recently I pulled the speakers apart to redo wiring, the brand is Eastech, only the biggest speaker manufacturer in Taiwan and one of the biggest in the world, and the units are marked 25W, so they have no trouble handling the power.

Eastech?? Well, they only supply drivers to a lot of quite famous companies out there who might be a bit embarassed to reveal the source of components, and they have a high end division which just recently was bought out by by Tymphany, the company behind Peerless, Scanspeak and Vifa.

So at least some people think my speakers are made by a company who knows how to make a speaker driver do the job ...

Frank