Thoughts and musings on DIY silver solid core speaker cable

[DaveC]

Silver needs to be 5N+ to be worth using for audio. UPOCC silver is 6N+ and does not have many flaws of normal silver... It may be worth the price for some uses.

IMO, you need to concentrate on design rather than materials. I'd really recommend getting some much less expensive copper and seeing what you can do besides 12g solid-core, which IMO is ridiculous to use in a cable that is designed to bend. It will crack, which will lead to poor sonics, and then it will break. Why do this? Using multiple runs of smaller wire is better wrt impedance as well as being useful as a cable that may be bent.

 

[Sablon Audio]

mm diameter is a metric proxy for awg, though candidly speaking you don't need the proposed gauges for a low power triode amp into sensitive speakers over just a 3m run.

 

[C.A.P]

I know dudes who run one 28 guage of solid silver to speakers terminals and swears by it. I dont have the balls . He said you can cover in cotton if needed

 

[DaveC]

I know dudes who run one 28 guage of solid silver to speakers terminals and swears by it. I dont have the balls . He said you can cover in cotton if needed

What that does is drastically reduce the damping factor of the system, which is speaker impedance divided by (amplifier output impedance + speaker cable impedance.)

This helps "loosen" up the bass and is useful for some drivers with very stiff suspensions that were intended to be used with high output impedance amplifiers and are currently being used with low output impedance amps, so the system isn't in balance the way the designer of the speaker intended.

Basically, the amp has less control over the woofer, which normally is bad, but in some cases can be good.

I would say that the drivers in question are usually vintage single driver type speakers. Modern single drivers have gone the opposite direction and generally use the most flexible suspension possible, which is compatible with more amps and less sensitive to amp output impedance.

 

[Legolas]

On low power amps don't need big gauge, I don't see 12AWG as big grade for speaker cable. Also tube amps that put out lots of energy would need a large capacity cable anyway IMO. I don't subscribe to using thin grades.

Some more experiences in this thread at AGon.
It seems overall in other threads I found, most folk prefer silver in one form or another, those who have laboured over both for some time.
Basically I build it as DIY or forget it. I can't justify 4K on speaker cables. If DIY works then I will keep them. Not much of an investment.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/would-silver-cables-beat-up-occ-copper

 

[DaveC]

On low power amps don't need big gauge, I don't see 12AWG as big grade for speaker cable. Also tube amps that put out lots of energy would need a large capacity cable anyway IMO. I don't subscribe to using thin grades.

Some more experiences in this thread at AGon.
It seems overall in other threads I found, most folk prefer silver in one form or another, those who have laboured over both for some time.
Basically I build it as DIY or forget it. I can't justify 4K on speaker cables. If DIY works then I will keep them. Not much of an investment.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/would-silver-cables-beat-up-occ-copper

My OCC copper cables, both IC and speaker cables, have beat every single non-OCC silver cable out there in every single trial over the last 6+ years...

I've been making cables for well over 20 years. Putting all this effort into the material when you don't have a reasonable, proven design is a waste of time and money.

 

[microstrip]

One nice thing in this hobby is that we can select what we like between thousands of diverse opinions, ignore all the others, and then feel there is a consensus ...

The only consensus I found about cables is from non believers who say that all decent cables used with decent electronics sound the same. Unfortunately it seems most of us do not own decent electronics ...

IMHO the only valid scientific explanation for the cable sound effects we perceive concerns their behavior at frequencies well above the audio band. As we do not have subjective models for interaction of RF noise with audio electronics we stay with individual empirical feelings, that are very particular to preferences and a limited range of systems.

 

[Legolas]

My OCC copper cables, both IC and speaker cables, have beat every single non-OCC silver cable out there in every single trial over the last 6+ years...

I've been making cables for well over 20 years. Putting all this effort into the material when you don't have a reasonable, proven design is a waste of time and money.

Respect your opinion, and experiences, but many others will differ. I am following many others who have DIY'd the same silver with the same structure (dead simple). If your OCC Copper sound best to your ears that is great. In my tests so far, no copper I have found beats a silver cable as long as the gauge is enough for the task. YMMV and it is all to my own ears ect ect.

If OCC copper is the holly grail, why do so many hard wired circuits use silver? My other question would be, how do we know any cable is OCC? Because the seller says so. Is there a franking or regulation body that controls such a thing? As in all things, silver is silver is silver, or not as the case may or may not be. As I said, I am not going to blow 4K on silver cables that I am not convinced yet, that they will be better.

I think what I should do, is make my DIY cables, get accustomed to their sound, then get a pair of good quality silver cables on den o, to see if they beat mine. That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[morricab]

It's really hard to generalize with speaker cable. Speaker and amp electrical characteristics can vary a lot and best SC can vary a lot too. If you got 5N silver that can sound really nice, but 12g wire isn't intended to be bent repeatedly so over time the wire will crack. IMO, you're best off using multiple runs of smaller gauge wire, maybe 24g or so. Or see what you can get Neotech UPOCC silver/teflon for. It's 6N+ and far better vs regular silver, but it can be pricey.

I would recommend to get some inert gas, maybe just something used to fill wine bottles, and flush as much air out of the teflon tubes and seal the ends to prevent corrosion. Sealing the ends isn't easy though, there are some primers that allow cyanoacrilate to stick to some degree, but the best adhesives are very expensive and not for sale to the public.

Another option would be to use enamel to paint the wire and thus prevent corrosion, this is how magnet wire is insulated.

Once the wires are enameled, you no longer need additional sheathing

 

[DaveC]

Once the wires are enameled, you no longer need additional sheathing

True, but I like adding a cotton cover. If the cable is shielded I'll use a thick layer of unbleached cotton batting to space the shield away from the wires to reduce capacitance, then techflex on top of that.

When I redo my website I'm going to add a section on cable jackets and give people a few options.

 

[morricab]

Respect your opinion, and experiences, but many others will differ. I am following many others who have DIY'd the same silver with the same structure (dead simple). If your OCC Copper sound best to your ears that is great. In my tests so far, no copper I have found beats a silver cable as long as the gauge is enough for the task. YMMV and it is all to my own ears ect ect.

If OCC copper is the holly grail, why do so many hard wired circuits use silver? My other question would be, how do we know any cable is OCC? Because the seller says so. Is there a franking or regulation body that controls such a thing? As in all things, silver is silver is silver, or not as the case may or may not be. As I said, I am not going to blow 4K on silver cables that I am not convinced yet, that they will be better.

I think what I should do, is make my DIY cables, get accustomed to their sound, then get a pair of good quality silver cables on den o, to see if they beat mine. That makes perfect sense to me.

I would say all things being equal that silver will beat copper...that said things are rarely equal. For high frequency quality, low inductance geometry and thin wire has been clearly superior in my experience. I would expect an optimized copper cable to beat a crude silver one.

 

[Legolas]

I would say all things being equal that silver will beat copper...that said things are rarely equal. For high frequency quality, low inductance geometry and thin wire has been clearly superior in my experience. I would expect an optimized copper cable to beat a crude silver one.

Indeed, I would expect too, but.... I not many multi strand silver litz cables have high inductance which is not good for tube amps I believe?

I can see a multi strand is easier to manage and more flexible. I will report back on how mine sounds. I will try multi strand as well, I was thinking 0.5mm and 10 strand for speaker cable may be a good combination. But bear in mind to get the same metal in the cable it would then need 16 strands to equal one 12AWG which is 2mm diameter (3.17mm2 area). But the strands would have more surface area if higher frequencies drift to the surface with the skin effect theory.

To be continued....

 

[whistleraudio]

Interesting project, atrostar59!
You are referring to both 3N and 5N silver wire in the first posting of this thread. I suppose that you ended up with 99.9% purity since 5N silver in AWG12 is very different to source in small/DIY quantities. Knut Skogrand uses AWG12 UPOCC copper in his ultra expensive cables. They are getting rave reviews. The skin effect is obviously no problem.

As you know, silver has a huge advantage over copper since you do not require an airtight insulation to avoid oxidation, and you are free to experiment with eg. organic cotton or silk.

As Sablon mentioned earlier in this thread, the "soft" silver from wires.co.uk is stiffer than other dead soft annealed wires. I suspect is it not heat annealed. A 12AWG wire will be rather stiff to handle without this processing. It will probably sound a bit forward as well. If possible I would not go below 4N (99.99%) purity for silver, since lower purities tend to sound somewhat less organic than higher purities.

 

[DaveC]

Knut Skogrand uses AWG12 UPOCC copper in his ultra expensive cables. They are getting rave reviews. The skin effect is obviously no problem.

As you know, silver has a huge advantage over copper since you do not require an airtight insulation to avoid oxidation, and you are free to experiment with eg. organic cotton or silk.

Yes, skin effect is a problem with 12g wire but if you're using it for a tone control then it's an asset. It depends on how you view cables and what you want them to do.

However, the largest issue with 12g wire is it is not designed to be bent repeatedly, which means it's an exceptionally poor and I would also say, incompetent and unethical choice of wire to use for cables. The wire will crack first, which will lead to the sound quality going downhill over time before it fails completely. If it's used for AC power it may lead to a fire and imo the cable will be 100% at fault if this occurs.

I've made several prototype headphone cable and it's very interesting how even wire much smaller than 12g will crack.

This is the 2nd time I've seen 12g solid core wire being used for expensive cables in the last month or so, and I want to emphasize to the folks here just how bad and thoughtless it is to offer these cables. And yes, I've seen it for power cables and I can't understand how the designer could be so ignorant. Furthermore, the purchaser or such cables is also risking their own safety as well as their family's safety. I'm not exaggerating this.

It's really too bad there is so much misinformation out there and also too bad that consumers are so overwhelmed with information they don't know who or what to believe. This leaves room for people to offer cables for sale that are very poorly designed, and when someone like myself, who is an engineer and also specializes in manufacturing and design for manufacturing/assembly to see these things and not be taken seriously. I posted that 12g solid-core power cables were dangerous on said thread and was ignored by everyone in that thread. I sincerely hope you never run into issues with this and your cable doesn't start a fire, but to ignore this issue is incomprehensible to me. Is better sound worth it? Seems crazy to me.

As far as silver not requiring airtight insulation, this is 100% false. The wire will corrode over time and the material next to the conductor will has a major effect on sound quality, this is why teflon is better vs PVC and why plated wire sounds much different vs unplated wire even though the plating is very thin vs the wire.

I also see lots of cable companies offering cables that will corrode over time and IMO this is also inexcusable.

 

[jeffreybehr]

1. Doubling or halving the number of same-size conductors changes the AWG number by 3, so two 12g. conductors have the same metal cross-section and resistance as a 9g. conductor
2. I've attached a chart of American wire Gage specifications...except I can't attach an Excel spreadsheet, so e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net and I'll e-mail it to you.
3. I've read somewhere that 18g. conductors are the most-efficient, electrically, for audio frequencies. Also, that's the largest conductor I use in specify my custom-wound speakercable from my tech, and I use multiple conductors, most recently two 18s and a 23, equally about 14-1/2g.
4. I've also heard from people who should know that conductor geometry is at least as important as any other cable factor such as conductor material, conductor size(s), dielectric material, etc.
5. I tend to prefer SHQ silver (as in Neotec's UCOCC) in 'Teflon' in my speakercable. Of course, YMwillV

 

[Sablon Audio]

As Sablon mentioned earlier in this thread, the "soft" silver from wires.co.uk is stiffer than other dead soft annealed wires. I suspect is it not heat annealed. A 12AWG wire will be rather stiff to handle without this processing. It will probably sound a bit forward as well. If possible I would not go below 4N (99.99%) purity for silver, since lower purities tend to sound somewhat less organic than higher purities.

Actually Tommy what I said was that it "sounds a bit different (‘stiffer’ and tonally ‘whiter’)" rather than comment on its physical handling. Whilst I fully appreciate the sonic qualities of annealing (both heat and cold ie cryo), I don't recall this particular wire feeling any different to identical examples from other suppliers. It is 4N / 99.99 purity btw and, whilst you may have a point about the level of annealing, it could also have been drawn more aggressively with fewer die steps. As an aside, the sonic qualities I mentioned above can be ameliorated by the application of c37 lacquer and threading into cotton tubing.

 

[whistleraudio]

Actually Tommy what I said was that it "sounds a bit different (‘stiffer’ and tonally ‘whiter’)" rather than comment on its physical handling. Whilst I fully appreciate the sonic qualities of annealing (both heat and cold ie cryo), I don't recall this particular wire feeling any different to identical examples from other suppliers. It is 4N / 99.99 purity btw and, whilst you may have a point about the level of annealing, it could also have been drawn more aggressively with fewer die steps. As an aside, the sonic qualities I mentioned above can be ameliorated by the application of c37 lacquer and threading into cotton tubing.

Sorry, I was a bit quick there.
However when I compare a "soft" 1mm silver wire from wires.co.uk to a dead soft annealed silver wire from an American refiner, the on from US feels like a shoe lace, while the one from wires.co.uk certainly is stiffer... and it may sound stiffer as well... as you said..

 

[Sablon Audio]

Sorry, I was a bit quick there.
However when I compare a "soft" 1mm silver wire from wires.co.uk to a dead soft annealed silver wire from an American refiner, the on from US feels like a shoe lace, while the one from wires.co.uk certainly is stiffer... and it may sound stiffer as well... as you said..

Actually I still have 13m of wire from Hauser & Miller (USA) left over. Is 20g / 0.8mm and doesn’t seem particularly soft. I just checked the invoice and it was described as ‘dead soft’. Perhaps you use a different refiner?

 

[whistleraudio]

Actually I still have 13m of wire from Hauser & Miller (USA) left over. Is 20g / 0.8mm and doesn’t seem particularly soft. I just checked the invoice and it was described as ‘dead soft’. Perhaps you use a different refiner?

I am sure it was not Hauser & Miller. I think it was Hoover & Strong.

 

[Agent86]

Indeed, I would expect too, but.... I not many multi strand silver litz cables have high inductance which is not good for tube amps I believe?

I can see a multi strand is easier to manage and more flexible. I will report back on how mine sounds. I will try multi strand as well, I was thinking 0.5mm and 10 strand for speaker cable may be a good combination. But bear in mind to get the same metal in the cable it would then need 16 strands to equal one 12AWG which is 2mm diameter (3.17mm2 area). But the strands would have more surface area if higher frequencies drift to the surface with the skin effect theory.

To be continued....

Pulling on an old thread here....I'm wondering how this silver speaker cable project turned out. The reason I asked is because I had some incredible results in using solid core silver wire as jumpers to connect the midrange/tweeter module of my Verity Amadis S to the bass unit. Based on this success, some folks have encouraged me to use solid core silver as the main speaker cables from my Pass Int 60 to the Verity Amadis. It would be a short run of 4-5 feet per polarity to a 93db/8 ohm speaker.

For the jumpers., I used VH Audio's 18 awg OCC silver hookup wire with AirLok insulation. Pricey, but very good stuff. When I asked Chris about doing the same for the main speaker cables, he started yelling at me about multiple runs needed for a thicker gauge cable and then stuff about "capacitance," "inductance," and "geometry.." Let's not use those nasty words! (or expressions like "dead hooker," "rolled up,". or "shower curtain"). Thanks all!