Treehaus Audiolab

[spiritofmusic]

They had incredible purity and openness on the mids and tops, but I felt that they needed a bit more weight to balance them out. They were however driving a large room - 34 x 20 ft with a high vaulted ceiling.

The love for them came thru loud and clear in the review.
Loved the Garrard 301 built into its stand.
Quite literally a turnTABLE, lol.

 

[dcathro]

Andy Moore at Jeff's Place, in Aussie.

We were at Craig's place - Craig is a good friend of Andy.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

Ive talked to Andy before.. he is a Rullit Evangelist in Australia!

 

[Parsons]

Rich, you have a PM from me. You may be misunderstanding me. My older 20W+ 845s and current 70W+ 211s both allowed my 101dB Zu Definitions 4 to run plenty loud in my old 28x22x13 space and current 18x50x9 space.
However a certain graininess or glassy hardness was present on the 20W 845s that's isn't on the 70W 211s. Which wasn't present when I heard the 20W 845s on the Zus in a room 4x smaller.
My consideration is that I have to get the spkrs/amps/room synergy right, not just buy the "best" spkrs I can for the money, and get the amps right at a later date. A reason why I won't consider a move to ribbons unless I change my whole mindset to SS. Those spkrs could be the Treehaus, but the challenge of my room then awaits, and since 20W on 101dB was tested very acutely, anything less powerful like your 6.5W 300Bs would be even more.
Sean of Zu, a long term devotee of high efficiency, recommends nothing less than 18W, even in a small room.

Apologies...just catching up on the thread.

As a reference point, I can't explain this at all, but for some reason my Zu Druid 6s seemed to crave higher power amps than what the numbers suggested they might otherwise. I think those had the same drivers as your Defs...just one less full range, right (and no powered subs, obviously)? I don't feel the same about my Soul Supremes, btw, but I use them in smaller rooms. Similarly, I know John from Classic Audio Loudspeakers felt his Hartsfields sounded their best with his Atma-Sphere amps that I think were 60 wpc, yet I believe his Hartsfields were also over 100 db efficient? He definitely played them loud in the couple hours I had the pleasure of hearing them at his house, and they sounded glorious, but he sure wasn't using much of the 60 wpc I don't think. He didn't have any SET amps to demo with so I never got to hear them with lower power stuff that I have grown to love. That alone is the reason I ended up trying Atma-Sphere in the first place years ago.

For the Druids, I had a couple different 845 amps (Thoress SET 845 monos and a Melody 845 SET integrated)-- and then also had some PSET Audion 300Bs pushing about the same 16-18 wpc as the 845 SETs, on top of the Atma-Sphere. I ran some lower powered Decware and a few others and I never felt like those were enough for the Druids...so perhaps a similar experience to your Defs and also confirming what Sean is recommending too?

I haven't put my 0.75 wpc 71a amp back in rotation with my big Treehaus for a while, but I can remember Rich being surprised that I could push his speakers in my big room well enough with that, and it was so engaging I preferred it over the Audions and the Atma-Sphere amps I had (all of which I sold, but still have the 71a). The 300b and PX4 amps definitely give it more punch and reach and are more balanced, so I'm settled out with those...but again, 4-6 wpc on those.

It's also possible you are playing your selections louder than I am, but I can clearly hear the music playing in my listening room from 1-2 floors up in my house, and my listening room has a pretty decent amount of insulation. But I definitely understand your hesitation and questions.

 

[dcathro]

I use the Super Aero in the "uplevel" Treehaus speakers.. the ones at CAF/ AXPONA used the Aero-level driver.

Also, I missed part of your thread earlier: I could definitely see how blending that speaker with those drivers you have at those crossover points would present a much greater challenge. 170hz with a gentle slope is much further into the more critical bands, and you have a ported box that yet another sound source itself.

Hi Rich,

What exactly is the difference between the Aero and Super Aero?

To my eyes, the cones, surrounds and spiders all look the same.

Thanks

David

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

Hi Rich,

What exactly is the difference between the Aero and Super Aero?

To my eyes, the cones, surrounds and spiders all look the same.

Thanks

David

Hi David,

The cone material is different on the super aero, particularly in the whizzer. (its lighter weight but similar paper composition which is why they do not look that different). The motor in the super aero is also larger. The leather surround and spiders are of the same quality in either driver. (Because they are handmade of vintage parts saying "identical" might be a misnomer)

The sonic result is the super aero is a bit more efficient, and the sonic presentation has bit more detail and nuance. The tone and frequency response generally are about the same.

 

[dcathro]

Hi David,

The cone material is different on the super aero, particularly in the whizzer. (its lighter weight but similar paper composition which is why they do not look that different). The motor in the super aero is also larger. The leather surround and spiders are of the same quality in either driver. (Because they are handmade of vintage parts saying "identical" might be a misnomer)

The sonic result is the super aero is a bit more efficient, and the sonic presentation has bit more detail and nuance. The tone and frequency response generally are about the same.

Thanks Rich!

It is interesting that some of the Aero models look very much like the Super Aeros.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335059369888

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

Thanks Rich!

It is interesting that some of the Aero models look very much like the Super Aeros.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335059369888

Because of their vintage nature, there is definitely some aesthetic variation in the drivers. That pair seems to have a cover over the magnet making it look more like a Super Aero (I have a pair of Classic9s on my desk that are similar). The Super Aeros have a long motor with a deeper electromagnet than Aero.

Having had A LOT of these drivers now pass through my hands at this point, despite the visual variation and handmade nature, they are highly consistent sounding, both within their respective "trim level" and between the trim levels. The man is a real genius.

 

[Superchunk]

"Speak of the devil and he is sure to appear.."

Hi Everyone! Thank you Ron for posting up about my speakers and amplification products.There has been a lot of positive press and talk. (Dave McNair just did an in depth review over on Tracking Angle). The design ethos around here is to produce great, realistic sound that can provide deep emotive experience for those listening. We don't focus on numbers, or specs. That isn't an excuse or crutch, it is simply a product of hearing so many things that meet a variety of specs and benchmarks and yet the sound ends up being a bit soulless. The products should also have solid industrial design behind them, so they can be featured in the living room and not only hidden away in listening spaces. I'm a big fan of the MCM work of George Nakashima (clearly)

To achieve great sound, natural materials are used when possible, and celebrate the imperfection. The live edge not only adds visual appeal and a bit of sculpture, but it also is a great way to randomly diffract waves off the edge of the baffle. The driver cones, also being handmade, are not "perfect." You will not find carbon fiber or diamond here. If you think about great sound sources.. vocal cords, string instruments, pianos, etc, they are not "perfect" designs made to scientific tolerances.

The Treehaus Audiolab gear is also voiced and tested with regular music, and you will find at shows, audiophile "cheater" tracks are avoided. I am a personal fan of New Wave and contemporary indie. Despite the low wattage SET amps and full range drivers they need to play Nine Inch Nails, and be able to execute any Radiohead/ Thom Yorke track like a star athlete. Given their design, they also of course do the things well you would expect them to: Jazz.. female vocals, etc. I tend to try to find the stuff they shouldn't do well..

I'd also state as part of the philosophy here that Treehaus Audiolab products produce great sound to me, our customers, and many who have heard our stuff on the show circuit. They are a great "answer" but they are NOT the ONLY "answer". If high tech speakers and electronics and big wattage numbers are what takes you a place of audio nirvana, I think that is fantastic and I can appreciate that. There is no right answer in audio, it is what gives you the experience you are looking for in listening that matters.

To touch on the products in detail:

The speakers are open baffle, using live edge wood for the main baffle, with hard maple sidewalls and legs. The core full-range drivers are made by Oleg Rullit in Germany. They are based on vintage Telefunken/ Klangfilm cores that he completely rebuilds with extremely lightweight paper cones, deerskin leather surrounds, and rewound coils. These drivers are very much full range, they go over 15K, and start to roll off gently below 90hz or so. There is no crossover, etc on the full range, it is direct to the amplifier. Very pure.

The super tweeter is crossed over (1st order with an attenuator) over 15K, and I usually have it turned down quite a bit. It's there less for frequency extension, and more for adding a touch more realism to metallic instruments, such as cymbals. On the other end of the frequency spectrum, the woofer is adding some additional foundation in the last octave. I found in the development of these speakers, that given they are open baffle, and room effects bass response and quality are so pronounced in any speaker, that having DSP with separate amplification allowed for a very easy way to get great bass in any room. It uses REW to make the curves, and an included miniDSP to execute it all. Bi-amping the speakers also allows for the ultra-efficient full range driver to do its thing with lower powered SET amps, and then use solid sate for the woofer where that technology better shines. Because its crossed over so low, its more like mixing in a subwoofer into a system than trying to cross over 2 different sounding sources within a more critical listening frequency range. (a very easy to mix in subwoofer because it is also open baffle, in the same enclosure, rather than trying to mix a sealed woofer with an open baffle)

The field coil voltage, being adjustable, allows a bit of tuning of the sound. Adding in the DSP as well, and it gives enough flexibility to dial in the speaker to the room, the electronics ahead of it, and most importantly, the listener preferences. It may seem complicated at first but in reality, a few hours of setup and tweaking and these things quickly dial into the room (rather than some other speakers where you end up moving them all over the place for subtle changes that may or not be an improvement)

Each speaker is made to order, and there are options on quality of field coil driver and wood choices. The wood can affect the sound of course, so I stick to offerings that are medium density hardwoods (walnut, elm, etc).

On the amplification side, the designs are strongly influenced by Susumu Sakuma and early Western Electric. Lots of transformers in the signal, no capacitors. All the signal transformers use Finemet cores, and are made for Treehaus Audiolab in Japan. (by the builders who were originally at Noguchi) In testing and benchmarking MANY transformers, I found Finemet to be excellent at resolving detail, with great tone and liquidity, without any harshness or astringent nature.

The 300B amplifier using a 10Y/801 interstage transformer driving a 300B. The power supply is separate to keep noise (electrical and mechanical) from the amplification circuit. The power supply is TV damper rectified, and the nitty gritty of it is thoroughly modern (constant current source, Coleman filament regulators, etc)

The preamplifier is also heavy on the use of transformers: transformer based volume control, a 4P1L that is triode strapped and running filament bias, and custom output transformers. Basically a mini-SET amp.

Given the strong affinity for Finemet iron; I also make an MC SUT. 3 Ratios, and the cores I dip in Urushi lacquer, wrap in Kimono silk, and then pack in copper boxes.

I do think it takes hearing the speakers in person to realize what they are capable of. At first, people see the live edge wood, and what appear to be a random placement of drivers, some low-powered tube amplifiers attached, and think it is a bit of a gimmick. The reality is the design is carefully considered, from the driver placement, their relation to each other on the baffle, the shape and construction of the sidewalls, etc. It is what transforms an open baffle into a serious speaker.

Thank you for having me here; I deeply love music and audio.. whether is my own product or something else. There are so many great ways to reproduce music. It's about enjoyment; it should never be stressful.

Crazy for me reading this.

Rarely do I get to run into people who state indie as a primary genre... usually if it's rock at all it's classic rock, while for me I need yo la Tengo, dinosaur Jr and pavement to sound as good as Andrew Bird or cat power does. It's not an easy task to be honest and requires the ability to provide detail, power and clarity while being musical and forgiving enough...and separation of instruments is vital or it starts to sound like a cacophony.

Then on top of that, I'm in the process of designing my own open baffle speakers with:
Tweeter crossed high for a hint of sparkle and air. I don't like too much here.
Field coil run essentially full range.
Woofers crossed up around 6-800 to support the field coils and give me the oomph I need to rock out.

Using minidsp and class d on just the woofers.

And I've already bought the live edge for the baffles.

Oh, and I also use single ended amplification for the mids and an transformer based preamp (allnic).

Tree Haus...you're my audio hero now

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

Crazy for me reading this.

Rarely do I get to run into people who state indie as a primary genre... usually if it's rock at all it's classic rock, while for me I need yo la Tengo, dinosaur Jr and pavement to sound as good as Andrew Bird or cat power does. It's not an easy task to be honest and requires the ability to provide detail, power and clarity while being musical and forgiving enough...and separation of instruments is vital or it starts to sound like a cacophony.

Then on top of that, I'm in the process of designing my own open baffle speakers with:
Tweeter crossed high for a hint of sparkle and air. I don't like too much here.
Field coil run essentially full range.
Woofers crossed up around 6-800 to support the field coils and give me the oomph I need to rock out.

Using minidsp and class d on just the woofers.

And I've already bought the live edge for the baffles.

Oh, and I also use single ended amplification for the mids and an transformer based preamp (allnic).

Tree Haus...you're my audio hero now

While I test and try to voice these speakers for the many genres of music out there.. I personally attach most to indie/alternative from late 70s up to the present (currently on quite a Yaeji kick.. very interesting how she has taken house influences from 20 years ago and reinterpreted them) As a benefit, because indie is so varied, its usually a good system test with the right tracks.

Best of luck in your endeavors!