Treehaus Audiolab

[spiritofmusic]

And also at capital this year ? they sounded very good at axpona now I’m really looking forward to hearing them more. Your choice of real audio tracks is very nice to read. I never ask rooms
To play crazy stuff but stuff I do know and rock I all most never ask.
using for the most part a single driver is a better way to reproduce music. Most times when I’ve heard this method it always seemed rolled off. Yours are sincerely appreciated good sound quality
Makes the point of single driver very clear

Alrainbow, I am a big believer in single driver stuff. Pnoe although not fully to my taste is amazingly coherent, Audiophile Bills horns are compelling. A lot about my Zus also convinces, but as you intimate, there are some tradeoffs.
I've heard nothing but good things about the magic of this Rullit FC driver from Bill, and the whole concept intrigues.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rich, Parsons, have either of you heard the Maxonic horn loaded FC spkrs out of Japan? Their price is too rich for my blood, but like a lot of Japanese esoterica and craftsmanship, they really float my boat.
Any reports on SQ?

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

As to shows, the plan is to be at NYAS in September, and CAF in November. Unfortunately, Munich is probably a ways off in the show plans given the logistics. It is definitely a show Id like on the calendar at some point in the future.

As to efficiency, the full range driver is over 100db efficient.. it does vary based a bit based on the field coil voltage. Changing the voltage will change the character of the sound as you might expect: lower is a bit looser, warmer, with less efficiency and higher voltage is tighter/sharper sounding with greater efficiency. The woofer itself is low 90s efficient, but given its being driven by solid state, it's not a concern. Ive experimented with SET and tube push-pull (a design with loads of negative feedback) on the woofer, and as expected, it didn't perform as well as solid state options.

One aspect of the Rullit drivers I really like is that they do not need to play loud to express a lot of energy or detail. They are more like a lightweight sports car that you can work the gearbox and suspension a bit without getting in legal trouble, rather than a high horsepower supercar where you need to hit triple digits to enjoy the performance. And for rock and such, that woofer provides the foundation and movement of air necessary to complete the sound. The super tweeter is probably doing the least in the driver matrix.

At any show, anyone can request anything they wish to hear, as long as the lyrics aren't offensive. I welcome the weird. I actually like hearing a crappy recording from the early days of my favorite bands. Probably just signed or financed the recording themselves, small studio, limited resources. The artifacts from those limitations in a recording help transport you to the time and place of the creation.

Spiritofmusic, I haven't heard the Masonic but they are definitely something I'd like to experience, along with GOTO UNIT (I think all their stuff is AlNiCo but intriguing none-the-less)

 

[Alrainbow]

I very much can’t wait to meet you and your room.
I’ve heard wizzers , metal cones or wizzer cones
the vented ones were good but always seemed to roll off. but non were offensive or lacked clarity just to me needed sparkle. Do you have a sub you tried or use ?
Speaker designing is both complex and difficult in that you need to hear them not just show on paper or measure them and say it’s great.

 

[dcathro]

Thank you @Parsons for writing all you did about your setups and the kind words. That basement setup is absolutely killer there.

Alrainbow: I use MiniDSP for the DSP/ EQ and REW for doing the measurements. They are both great pieces of software and easy to use, with tons of support in the greater audio community.

Open baffle is definitely having a renaissance with Pure Audio Project, Spatial, and others. Field coil as well with Songer, Wolf von Langa, Classic Audio, and some of the various speakers Voxactiv drivers find their way into. (lets also not forget Masonic, WIP, and Feastrix in Japan)

Spiritofmusic: I sort of touched on it on my previous post, but blending the woofer and the field coil full range is pretty easy and fluid on these speakers, primarily because we are doing it so low in the frequency spectrum. Ive tried bi amping more "traditional" speakers where that crossover point is 300hz (approx) and it can be very hard to blend different types of amps once you get up into that range. Also, as mentioned, because it's an open baffle woofer on the same enclosure as the open baffle full range driver, they are sonically closer and easier to synergize than a traditional ported speaker and sealed subwoofer in its own box.

I have never heard your speakers, but was introduced to them a few years ago by Jay (Parsons), and have to say that I love your approach, - augmented full range on an open baffle using natural materials. I also love the look! I am glad to see that you are getting some attention.

I am going to hear a pair of Rullits for the first time tonight - a pair of 10" on open baffles (no additional woofer or tweeter).

I can confirm the difficulty of mating an open baffle widebander to a ported woofer. I have Supravox 215s on a small open baffle crossed over at 170Hz to a Wolf Von Langa JBL based 15" in a ported box and at 7KHz to a Seas Exotic tweeter. The crossovers are all 1st order with zobel networks but it has taken me an inordinate amount of time to get it to sound seamless.

 

[spiritofmusic]

As to shows, the plan is to be at NYAS in September, and CAF in November. Unfortunately, Munich is probably a ways off in the show plans given the logistics. It is definitely a show Id like on the calendar at some point in the future.

As to efficiency, the full range driver is over 100db efficient.. it does vary based a bit based on the field coil voltage. Changing the voltage will change the character of the sound as you might expect: lower is a bit looser, warmer, with less efficiency and higher voltage is tighter/sharper sounding with greater efficiency. The woofer itself is low 90s efficient, but given its being driven by solid state, it's not a concern. Ive experimented with SET and tube push-pull (a design with loads of negative feedback) on the woofer, and as expected, it didn't perform as well as solid state options.

One aspect of the Rullit drivers I really like is that they do not need to play loud to express a lot of energy or detail. They are more like a lightweight sports car that you can work the gearbox and suspension a bit without getting in legal trouble, rather than a high horsepower supercar where you need to hit triple digits to enjoy the performance. And for rock and such, that woofer provides the foundation and movement of air necessary to complete the sound. The super tweeter is probably doing the least in the driver matrix.

At any show, anyone can request anything they wish to hear, as long as the lyrics aren't offensive. I welcome the weird. I actually like hearing a crappy recording from the early days of my favorite bands. Probably just signed or financed the recording themselves, small studio, limited resources. The artifacts from those limitations in a recording help transport you to the time and place of the creation.

Spiritofmusic, I haven't heard the Masonic but they are definitely something I'd like to experience, along with GOTO UNIT (I think all their stuff is AlNiCo but intriguing none-the-less)

Rich, my primary issue is getting the room/amps/spkrs synergy right. That's why I found it intriguing and not a little amazing, that Parsons managed to saturate his 20x35x8 space on your spkrs with just the 6.5W of your 300B amps, while I struggled somewhat filling a slightly bigger space on my ostensibly similar high efficiency Zus on 20W+.
For me, this Q becomes critical because the choice in triodes over 25W is way limited, but up to 10W or so opens up so many more choices re 300B, even the low power pentodes of Misho Wooden amps etc.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

dcathro: thank you! The Rullit drivers are generally pretty incredible. I am not sure which you are going to hear, but they are all very good. (he used to have 3/4 levels, now he has 2 (Aero and Super Aero) and then 2 magnet types (AlNiCo and field coil)

Alrainbow: I haven't tried a separate powered subwoofer with them. Depending on room and such, they are providing bass into the high 20s pretty well. If you really wanted that bottom end thump, the miniDSP I include has 2 inputs with 4 signal outputs. It would probably allow for a greater level of control and integration between the woofers in the speakers and the subwoofers if you used that as the control point. Because of the power of the DSP, you could weed out the bass bumps that the room/ speaker/ subwoofer combination may produce especially in those overlap regions between the woofer and subwoofer.

spiritofmusic: I am a little stumped. Despite the physical size difference between a Definition and one of my speakers, the Definition should be moving a lot of air in the room. Its 2 10" drivers + the powered eminence woofers in the bottom. The Zu stuff can also really scream with the SPLs if so desired. Do you want the room filled with concert level sound? Or at any volume.. is it lacking warmth (low mid bass sort of stuff). Ive found that with these SET amps, because they don't really clip (just further distort) that their wattage goes further than it seems like it should. My living room is 13x14 roughly with 10 ft ceilings, and I am running a 3/4watt 71A amp right now. There's a bit of subtle compression of dynamic range at points, but it fills the room very well. So I don't think it's a matter of power for you. As much as Id love to see more 833 monster triode amps in the world, the lower the SET power you need the more options it opens up for you. (some day I need to try 808 or 100TH, although they are too rare to base a "commercial" product around)

How far are the speakers from each other, and from you?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rich, I used to run my Defs in a 27x29x13 space, now 18x50x9. In both situations, 20W was a push, 40W+ seems to be ideal.
Listen, I don't want to derail this thread, it's just that there are such varying experiences out there, some that don't seem to match mine.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

I don't think its derailing.. if its a good discussion and it helps you (and those reading) regardless of their speaker choices, then it should be here.

I've never heard a Definition.. I have heard a few variations of Druid and Omen. Can you be a more specific about what seemed to be lacking at lower power, or what you might find is still lacking? On paper you should have more than enough there, but the numbers don't always tell the true story.

 

[dcathro]

dcathro: thank you! The Rullit drivers are generally pretty incredible. I am not sure which you are going to hear, but they are all very good. (he used to have 3/4 levels, now he has 2 (Aero and Super Aero) and then 2 magnet types (AlNiCo and field coil)

They were 10" Super Aero field coils in a large open baffle. They were very good to incredible depending on the material. I will post some pics tomorrow.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't think its derailing.. if its a good discussion and it helps you (and those reading) regardless of their speaker choices, then it should be here.

I've never heard a Definition.. I have heard a few variations of Druid and Omen. Can you be a more specific about what seemed to be lacking at lower power, or what you might find is still lacking? On paper you should have more than enough there, but the numbers don't always tell the true story.

Rich, you have a PM from me. You may be misunderstanding me. My older 20W+ 845s and current 70W+ 211s both allowed my 101dB Zu Definitions 4 to run plenty loud in my old 28x22x13 space and current 18x50x9 space.
However a certain graininess or glassy hardness was present on the 20W 845s that's isn't on the 70W 211s. Which wasn't present when I heard the 20W 845s on the Zus in a room 4x smaller.
My consideration is that I have to get the spkrs/amps/room synergy right, not just buy the "best" spkrs I can for the money, and get the amps right at a later date. A reason why I won't consider a move to ribbons unless I change my whole mindset to SS. Those spkrs could be the Treehaus, but the challenge of my room then awaits, and since 20W on 101dB was tested very acutely, anything less powerful like your 6.5W 300Bs would be even more.
Sean of Zu, a long term devotee of high efficiency, recommends nothing less than 18W, even in a small room.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

They were 10" Super Aero field coils in a large open baffle. They were very good to incredible depending on the material. I will post some pics tomorrow.

I use the Super Aero in the "uplevel" Treehaus speakers.. the ones at CAF/ AXPONA used the Aero-level driver.

Also, I missed part of your thread earlier: I could definitely see how blending that speaker with those drivers you have at those crossover points would present a much greater challenge. 170hz with a gentle slope is much further into the more critical bands, and you have a ported box that yet another sound source itself.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rich, I notice in your precis that you're allergic to audiophile recordings, and require your spkr (or want to hear in any spkr) the ability to shine with more average recordings, new wave etc.
Despite me gradually building a bigger jazz and classical library, my core music still remains The Who, Zep, Black Sabbath, Rush to modern day Porcupine Tree and Tool...Tony Williams Lifetime, Weather Report, electric Miles and Mahavishnu Orchestra to modern fusion with Dennis Chambers etc...
My Zus really excel with this stuff, and I've wrangled my system to be much more neutral and expressive with more discerning (lol) jazz and classical.
Your OBs, and the Rullit driver in particular, shine with rougher diamonds like the artists I've mentioned?
I did see in the recent big review you had that Rush "Spirit Of Radio" was on the playlist. THAT doesn't happen very often in this game, lol.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

spiritofmusic, I think play all that stuff quite well. As I mentioned, I love all the work of Trent Reznor as well, so if they couldn't play that sort of stuff well I would be disappointed. Compared to the Zu, they might not play it in a 110db kick your @ss front row concert volume sort of way, but they will definitely rock the room, and in the process you might notice tones and textures in electronic instruments that you hadn't previously. I also like Gary Numan, and I didnt use to appreciate how much texture, tone, and nuance those early synths have in their sound.

The field coils do Neil Peart's drumkit some justice because they are so speedy. During that review we also listened to the new Bjork album which is a heavy mix of strings. horns, and heavy electronic bass all thrown together. At AXPONA, New Gold (Gorillaz) My City was Gone (Pretenders) along with some Radiohead, Khruangbin, Wet Leg, Japanese Breakfast, and Black Country, New Road were in heavy rotation.

DISCLOSURE: I am happy to play ANY track requested at a show. "Audiophile track" or not. I dont want anyone to think I am prejudice.. its simply I know my speakers and amps can do that stuff well.. I want to illustrate to newcomers what this equipment can do to the music they love and grew up with. Or just heard in the car on the way to the show.

 

[dcathro]

Here are some pics of the Rullit open Baffles:

 

[spiritofmusic]

spiritofmusic, I think play all that stuff quite well. As I mentioned, I love all the work of Trent Reznor as well, so if they couldn't play that sort of stuff well I would be disappointed. Compared to the Zu, they might not play it in a 110db kick your @ss front row concert volume sort of way, but they will definitely rock the room, and in the process you might notice tones and textures in electronic instruments that you hadn't previously. I also like Gary Numan, and I didnt use to appreciate how much texture, tone, and nuance those early synths have in their sound.

The field coils do Neil Peart's drumkit some justice because they are so speedy. During that review we also listened to the new Bjork album which is a heavy mix of strings. horns, and heavy electronic bass all thrown together. At AXPONA, New Gold (Gorillaz) My City was Gone (Pretenders) along with some Radiohead, Khruangbin, Wet Leg, Japanese Breakfast, and Black Country, New Road were in heavy rotation.

DISCLOSURE: I am happy to play ANY track requested at a show. "Audiophile track" or not. I dont want anyone to think I am prejudice.. its simply I know my speakers and amps can do that stuff well.. I want to illustrate to newcomers what this equipment can do to the music they love and grew up with. Or just heard in the car on the way to the show.

Rich, that's a great list. Sean of Zu is also insistent that his playlist is mixed and non audiophile. If the Treehaus can delineate Neil Peart's drums, that's great because they're famously not mastered well, especially on digital, and Geddy Lee's upper midrangey bass guitar really occupies the same frequencies space.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Here are some pics of the Rullit open Baffles:


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There's a fellow on Positive Feedback who also runs his Rullits OB and full range, with no augmentation from bass woofers or supertweeters.

 

[dcathro]

There's a fellow on Positive Feedback who also runs his Rullits OB and full range, with no augmentation from bass woofers or supertweeters.

They had incredible purity and openness on the mids and tops, but I felt that they needed a bit more weight to balance them out. They were however driving a large room - 34 x 20 ft with a high vaulted ceiling.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

There's a fellow on Positive Feedback who also runs his Rullits OB and full range, with no augmentation from bass woofers or supertweeters.

The Rullit drivers, especially in 10”, are the most “full range” full range driver I have experienced. They could be in one of the Treehaus baffles by themselves and probably make many happy with what they can do. However, I wanted the Treehaus speakers to have no excuses when it came to any genre of music hence the woofer and super tweeter.

 

[spiritofmusic]

They had incredible purity and openness on the mids and tops, but I felt that they needed a bit more weight to balance them out. They were however driving a large room - 34 x 20 ft with a high vaulted ceiling.

Andy Moore at Jeff's Place, in Aussie.