True or False: If a System Can Sound Great with Orchestral Music, Can it Also ROCK?

[kach22i]

I agree with what Dick Olsher is saying about dipoles. About thirteen years ago I helped him find a buyer for his SoundLab A1's, which he had owned since 1992.

Great, then we all agree that setting up a room's acoustics based on music genre rather than loudspeaker type and sonic characteristics would be rather silly., right? Where the heck did that strawman argument come from anyway?

Always an exception: that is unless the room included some special requirement like hanging certain art or even musical instruments on the wall that might resonate or reflect in a departmental way with music reproduction.

The other strawman argument, the one as basis for this tread perhaps can also be laid to rest. No one has yet correlated a connection between music genre and amplifier design other than myself when mentioning live musical performances including those sessions in a recording studio.

There are several people that in the past posted they have a "retro room" with their old system and old music collection in one room that they are comfortable with, and a main room where the current music collection is enjoyed, and that the old music just seems better suited to the old system, for perhaps nostalgic reasons.

To recap: a chap walks into a bar and tells the bartender....................

Chap: I like classical music and want to listen to it at home.

Bartender: Are you into computer music servers, flac files and streaming yet?

Chap: No, and I want to stay with my beloved record collection and I just inherited a large CD collection of classical music.

Bartender: Does that classical music include a great deal of piano on it, or is it mostly small ensembles?

Chap: All the above, I love it all man, big and small.

Bartender: Well I once read this thing Dick Olsler wrote back in 2010 that got me thinking about the scale of instruments being recreated, maybe you should look into panel speakers of some kind.

Chap: Oh, those scare me don't they dip down to 2 ohms?

Bartender: Some of them do, and some of them don't, but you are that right amp matching to the speaker completes a circuit and you don't want to cook anything.

Chap: Anything else that I need to know?

Bartender: Yea, panels take up a lot of room as you have to pull them off the front wall quite a bit, and because they are dipole radiating pattern speakers usually with a narrow pattern and limited sweet-spot room treatments like diffusion and absorption will be different than conventional dynamic loudspeakers.

Chap: I'm glad I came in here, I feel like I learned a lot.

Bartender: What will you have to drink?

Chap: Well I listen to a lot of classical music, what do you recommend?

Bartender: A nice Cognac or Armagnac will give you that warm feeling like Vivaldi, but I also have Beaujolais if you are into Stravinsky.

 

[Atmasphere]

However, this is the point from which we diverge because I think there is another side of the coin to this, and it is what we can actually use and enjoy as an end result.

Watching an oscilloscope dance and or studying the schematic of a amp or preamp that expresses an accomplishment - perhaps even a work of genius isn't a consumer's end goal. At best it is a hobbyist curiosity at what is behind and what makes up his/her favorite pastime.

That is certainly true- but as a designer I see both sides of that coin. The traces on an oscilloscope reveal a simple truth: all music is composed of waveforms, and viewed in this manner anyone would be hard pressed to tell rock and classical apart. It is our discernment, not the electronics, that tells them apart.

Adjacent topic - poking the bear: If a musician uses a different instrument or amp to perform with, then how can it be wrong to make a decision to select a playback system that will do that music or song justice?

It isn't! Recording studios go to great lengths to get a sound system that is as neutral and as wide range as possible. They might be recording a metal band one week, and the next an Irish folk group. Or maybe both at once! The only exception to this is a studio might do the mix down using a set of monitors that sound similar to car speakers. The idea is to get a mix that works well on car stereos, but as car stereos have improved dramatically this practice is not as common as it used to be.

As far as rock musicians go, it is very common for guitarists in particular to be very picky about what guitar amp they are using as each guitarist has their own 'sound' which often has a lot to do with the amp they use. But they would also know very well to never play their recordings back through such amps as they know how colored they are- and they want to hear how their recording actually sounds. I run a recording studio and play in a rock band; I deal with this a lot.

 

[microstrip]

I agree with what Dick Olsher is saying about dipoles. About thirteen years ago I helped him find a buyer for his SoundLab A1's, which he had owned since 1992.

I think we should be very prudent when facing such general statements, there is too much variation between existing dipole speakers to give any firm support to them.

These SoundLabs are an exceptional kind of speaker - my A2 PX is a cylindrical panel driven full range with almost two square meters. IMHO at some point we are mixing the effects of being a dipole with the extra large radiating area. I own SoundLabs since the old A2 and A4 model and all sounded very different in this aspect of energy coupling. Smaller area Audiostatics were even less "dipoles" in the sense of room coupling.

The more complete dipole study I have read was in the late S. Linkwitz web site : https://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm

BTW, the ESL63 also managed to couple with the room in "energy mode" when used in two pairs double L arrangement as seen in the SME listening room. If I owned a 18 feet wide room it would be a strong candidate to become my resident system!

 

[kach22i]

As far as rock musicians go, it is very common for guitarists in particular to be very picky about what guitar amp they are using as each guitarist has their own 'sound' which often has a lot to do with the amp they use. But they would also know very well to never play their recordings back through such amps as they know how colored they are- and they want to hear how their recording actually sounds. I run a recording studio and play in a rock band; I deal with this a lot.

Somewhere I read the claim that musicians are not known for having very good stereo systems, being that it was more about the music and not the equipment. Or perhaps they just spent their time and money on performance gear.

An occasional interview with Todd Rundgren or was it Joe Jackson being an exception to the rule.

As for myself, most of the musicians I knew in High School and College had good if not better systems than myself, but perhaps being more a reflection of economic class/income.

My point being; the motto of "musician knows best" regarding playback outside of the studio has been disputed in the stereo magazines I was reading back in the 1980's, 1990's and mid 2000's - just say'n.

I can look at auto mechanic's cars and builder's houses and make similar analogies I suppose.

And what does the non-audiophile respond too?

I had to introduce this sub-topic as I've just watched the video below.

The Secret Behind Bose Sound Revealed!

The point being, the design engineers of amps may be seeking oscilloscope perfection, and they may have tin ears but why would their own hearing matter if measurements are all that matters?

Measurements are not everything, that's why.

Right or wrong, enlightened or ignorant, people vote with their wallets and apparently in droves like bumped up bass and rolled off treble (see Bose video link above).

If someone wants to rock out with vintage JBL's or Cerwin Vega's powered with the biggest Sansui receiver they can find or a stack of Crown amps, then they have the freedom to do so.

However if that same person also wants to listen to classical string instruments full, lush and not strident or fatiguing and chooses to listen to a different second system consisting of tube amps tube pre-amps, tube phono sections, then they have the freedom to do so.

In fact one is hard pressed at an under $10,000 system to do all of the above with equal measure. heck, can it be done at $100,000, or at $1,000,000?

I don't think anyone said an amp should or can be designed to play a certain type of music over another, however in practice it is hard to imagine a 1-watt tube amp being recommend to a hard rock or rap music listener interested in very high sound decibels levels.

So in this example above the amps are not designed with a particular type of music in mind, but a demand load or performance criteria is, and that can be interpreted as an indictment against the amp designer as an intent to create a rock/rap amp or a classical music lover's delight.

Hence an amp can be made with paticular music genre in mind?

 

[kach22i]

New questions just occurred to me, and I ask these questions with no ill intent, and no sarcasm.

1. Different music genres can have different demands on a loudspeaker and therefore differing loads on an amplifier, yes?

2. If one knows the load will be constantly demanding peak after relentless peak, then greater cooling and or heat dissipation by both loudspeaker and amp will be required than with an occasional anticipated peak, yes?

3. Conforming to signals is one thing, but those signals are responded in kind by loads imposed by the loudspeaker (completing the circuit), and basic laws of thermal dynamics that are the result of physical motion and or applied electrical loads, yes?

EDIT:

4. Voicing of amps for a performance good, but bad for playback? Once an amp is off the bench no more tuning it to the best of speakers out there?

 

[Gregadd]

So we talk about signal to noise ratio
The louder the signal the greater the masking effect. So rock and roll tends to put the pedal to the metal. This noise will not be masked when playing classical.

 

[Atmasphere]

Somewhere I read the claim that musicians are not known for having very good stereo systems, being that it was more about the music and not the equipment. Or perhaps they just spent their time and money on performance gear.

An occasional interview with Todd Rundgren or was it Joe Jackson being an exception to the rule.

As for myself, most of the musicians I knew in High School and College had good if not better systems than myself, but perhaps being more a reflection of economic class/income.

My point being; the motto of "musician knows best" regarding playback outside of the studio has been disputed in the stereo magazines I was reading back in the 1980's, 1990's and mid 2000's - just say'n.

I can look at auto mechanic's cars and builder's houses and make similar analogies I suppose.

And what does the non-audiophile respond too?

I had to introduce this sub-topic as I've just watched the video below.

The Secret Behind Bose Sound Revealed!

The point being, the design engineers of amps may be seeking oscilloscope perfection, and they may have tin ears but why would their own hearing matter if measurements are all that matters?

Measurements are not everything, that's why.

Right or wrong, enlightened or ignorant, people vote with their wallets and apparently in droves like bumped up bass and rolled off treble (see Bose video link above).

If someone wants to rock out with vintage JBL's or Cerwin Vega's powered with the biggest Sansui receiver they can find or a stack of Crown amps, then they have the freedom to do so.

However if that same person also wants to listen to classical string instruments full, lush and not strident or fatiguing and chooses to listen to a different second system consisting of tube amps tube pre-amps, tube phono sections, then they have the freedom to do so.

In fact one is hard pressed at an under $10,000 system to do all of the above with equal measure. heck, can it be done at $100,000, or at $1,000,000?

I don't think anyone said an amp should or can be designed to play a certain type of music over another, however in practice it is hard to imagine a 1-watt tube amp being recommend to a hard rock or rap music listener interested in very high sound decibels levels.

So in this example above the amps are not designed with a particular type of music in mind, but a demand load or performance criteria is, and that can be interpreted as an indictment against the amp designer as an intent to create a rock/rap amp or a classical music lover's delight.

Hence an amp can be made with paticular music genre in mind?

Even a 1 watt amp can do well with rock if the loudspeaker is efficient enough, and that efficiency will really be important for classical as well!! No matter the scale- what makes an amp or loudspeaker good for one makes it good for the other. Many people buy systems that are highly colored, but those colorations serve music regardless of the genre the same way- poorly. Rock and classical music share the same frequency bands- its not as if one has more bandwidth than the other or exists only at certain frequency bands.

There really isn't any rationalization or other means out of this: the simple fact is that the idea that any sort of home stereo electronics can be designed for or favor a certain genre is simply false. There will be cases where it appears that a coloration favors a certain track on a specific recording, but again if you find that for rock you'll find it for classical too.