USB V AOIP - the long love and hate relationship of USB audio

Legolas

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Hi Guys

There are some quite active AOIP threads over on head-fi.org, and I wanted to share some of my findings in my personal journey with an as near perfect data transfer system from a music server to the DAC.

Few observations and a summary

1. USB has for me never quite got rid of the digital haze, the reminder it is a digital transport and imparts a character to the music I personally didn't live well with.
2. Relating to this 'issue' in my mind or to my ears, I embarked on the typical external fixer solutions to reduce this effect as much as possible.
3. I was always aware of the 5V feed in USB, the fact it was not designed for high end audio transmission, rather a driverless hot swop connection primarily for camera connection, printed and cheaper top make external drives.
4. The USB bus on a PC or Mac is shared, it gets noise and negative effects form other devices on that bus.
5. USB has limit as to the distance to the DAC or external drive which can cause placement issues and limit the music room layout.

500x1000px-LL-7a95bf6e_noise.jpeg
500x1000px-LL-8ade44c5_clear.jpeg

This is my visual analogy of what I hear, USB top, AOIP bottom.

So after owning various Metrum Acoustics DACs that used the Amanero USB board, and later an AMR DP-777, then later still an Audio Note DAC 5 with only SPDIF and AES input I started the complex and messy USB fixer trail.
First off was the Musical Fidelity V-Link. Cheap but not any better than the Amanero board. Next the M2Tech EVO and External Clock. Now this was heading in the right direction. We now have cleaner highs, better soundstage and more layering and 3D presentation. Nest I got 2 x LPS power supplies to feed the 9V DC to the M2Tech stack. Right there is moved into another higher level, less veil and haze, denser colours and more body and speed.

Still, it was barely an improvement over my old CEC CDP on AIFF Redbook.

Next I optimised my Mac Mini 2015 with SSD, 16 Gig RAM and fitted Audirvana+ v 2. Now this is getting interesting. I had stripped the Mac Min right back, taken out the int speaker, taken off or disabled everything that wasn't anything to do with audio.

Nest I tied some different USB - SPDIF convertors such as the Off-Ramp 5 and ~Berkley Alpha USB. Both had a marginal improvement over the M2Tech, but again I was remind each time I was listening to digital, and the lesser recordings where too stressful to really enjoy IMO. I seem very sensitive to treble edge or any kind of digital glaze or noise. Also the bass was improving with each change so far, but was not the kind of tuneful bass you get on a good vinyl rig.

Next I bought the TotalDAC USB cable / filter. This calmed the treble a bit, lost a little in transparency but was warmer sounding and did improve the digital glaze aspect of the sound. But to me, it was a fixer, ager the horse has bolted kind of divide.

Then I demoed the CH Precision C1 DAC.It was using USB and feeding my KGShv Carbon amplifier and Stax 009 headphones. Compared to the AMR and Metrum the C1 was fester, more dynamic and had great bas depth. I had the home demo for 6 hours. The first hour was exciting, but soon I began to realise many Redbook recording had an unnatural treble edge and a upper frequency ringing / overhand. This was apparent on some female vocal albums such as `Cranberries, Ecvanessence Fallen for example. As that demo went on, I started tracking flicking and in the end I was clock watching. It was the sound I prefer unfortunately. However I was informed it is much better on Ethernet than USB.

That got me thinking. Later last year I bought a used Audio Note DAC 5 and then a Rednet 3 AOIP box. It is pro-sumer really, not for home use so much, but as it turned out is fairly easy to set up. The key with it is is uses 1000 BaseT Ethernet and the Dante protocol which is designed for pro audio DAW use. The Rednet 3 also has AES and SPDIF pout for monitoring in a studio setting.

500x1000px-LL-d0af458e_IMG_3753.jpeg

500x1000px-LL-709d8c45_IMG_3751.jpeg
500x1000px-LL-1002c4aa_rednetinsystem2.jpeg

Here is the LPS mod it did.

The Rednet 3 cost me 899 USB from sweet water, and was 100% financed by selling of my USB decrapifier boxes with change left over. I use the supplied CAT 6 cable and installed the free software. I diode get sweet water to remote set up the router configuration using remote app. It took them 10 minutes. Then bingo, I have music.

Wow, immediately that digital glaze I was talking about was gone, the best way to describe it is it sound liquid, smooth, flowing, natural. A good sign is I was suddenly playing everything louder, and bear in mind my speakers are really near field and horns. I get zero hash or fatigue, it is really damb good. The Rednet burnt in for 2 weeks then stabilised, and has been on 24/7 ever since.

I know there are yet more USB fixer out there, ifi purifiers and such. But my view is if you can eradicate the grunge at the source, it is easier to play straight through, less components and devices messing with the signal path, and getting back to the original source material.

There are some caveats with this
1. It is limited to 192K.
2. The Rednet box is quite big and err, bright Red.
3. Sample rate changes need to be reset in software. It take me 20 seconds to do that each time I move from 44.1 to 96K.

Plus points are
1. One box, less leads (expensive) fits nicer on a rack.
2. Fit and forget it basically.
3. Software can be updated online.
4. Really fast latency which will reduce jitter.

There are further tweaks than can take the Rednet even higher.
1. Fit an internal LPS which I have done, cost 130 USD and not difficult to do.
2. Runs of it's internal clock, and can have an external word clock such as the super accurate Mutic unit (900 USD)

So I can faithfully say after the inclusion of the Rednet, my Mac Mini Uptone Audio MMK mod my PC source is now better than my CEC CDP in all areas. One thing that is a standpoint besides 'digital glaze' is the midrange has come though intact, less limped together with the lower ranges. It is here where most of the musical clues reside, so it gives the performance more information, like an in-depth report as opposed to a summary. And the speed and attack has ramped ups LOT, it jumps out of the soundstage and had super quick rise and drop off timing PRaT I guess some call it. Plucking bass lines (such as Level 42, Stanley Clarke) and drum solos are a great example.

I understand this system will not suit everyone, particularly the ones wanting todo DSD or upsample to beyond 192K. I am in the NOS DAC camp and play bit perfect, so it doesn't bother me.

I hope some folk found this useful. It is another route to high end data transmission against a purpose built server and moves away from the obsession of using USB audio.
 
Last edited:

pkane

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Jan 6, 2017
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Very informative!

Someone else recommended that I look into Rednet3 as a solution to my USB woes. By now, I have mostly solved the issues with USB playback, but I'm still curious about AOIP.

Can you please describe the chain of equipment and software needed to use Rednet3? I'm not clear as to how or where the data is originated to be delivered to this device (in Dante protocol?), and in particular, what software and/or remote control software can be used to drive it.

Thanks a lot!
 

asiufy

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Nothing significant here. It's just an Ethernet>SPDIF adapter. It's a pro audio device because it has most of its use in pro audio, and for good reason. It's mostly useful for transporting audio over long distances, like in a studio/pro audio environment, as it uses Ethernet cabling instead of the traditional AES/EBU, keeping the signal in Ethernet-land and only converting it at the output to SPDIF or AES.

If you want to avoid USB and use a more traditional input on your DAC, there are far cleaner/more straightforward alternatives out there.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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USB was never meant as a carrier for audio. That's why years ago, manufacturers were scrambling to create drivers so this crap would work.

Optical (ST or SC), AES/EBU, BNC Coax (MADI) and now Ethernet has always been the way to go.
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Nothing significant here. It's just an Ethernet>SPDIF adapter. It's a pro audio device because it has most of its use in pro audio, and for good reason. It's mostly useful for transporting audio over long distances, like in a studio/pro audio environment, as it uses Ethernet cabling instead of the traditional AES/EBU, keeping the signal in Ethernet-land and only converting it at the output to SPDIF or AES.

If you want to avoid USB and use a more traditional input on your DAC, there are far cleaner/more straightforward alternatives out there.

I see. Can you provide examples below 1K USD that would compete? I have had Berkley Alpha USB, M2 Tech Full Stack, Off-Ramp 5 all with dedicated linear power supplies. Along with TotalDAC USB filter and various other USB 'decarapifiers'.
The Rednet kills them. Have you even heard the Rednet / Dante? Thought not....
 

asiufy

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You're not comparing apples to apples. All the products you mention are USB-based, and you're comparing to your choice, which is AES/EBU based.

I honestly haven't investigated AES/EBU or SPDIF based solutions, but they're out there. In smaller numbers, granted, given the preponderance of USB. But some products that I know work great over legacy connections are the Auralic Aries and the Aurender N10. Both will output AES/EBU or SPDIF, just like your Rednet, and both work over Ethernet (the Aurender actually has internal storage, so it doesn't need to go out on the network for the files).

I strongly urge you to test an Auralic. Even the Auralic Mini, at $400, outputs SPDIF, and might sound better than your Rednet. My guess is that you don't like the Rednet necessarily, you just didn't like the USB converters you've tried, with your choice of DAC. So, a different device, on the same port on your DAC, might do the trick just as good as the Rednet.

I haven't heard the Rednet because of the reasons I outlined before. It's a solution in search of a problem. It's too complex for real people, and its complexity derives from features that regular customers won't use.

In "computer audio", things must not only sound good, but also be simple and straightforward. Otherwise, you'll have the CD-spinning brigade poking fun of how "complex" it is, and it doesn't really have to be.


cheers,
alex
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Very informative!

Someone else recommended that I look into Rednet3 as a solution to my USB woes. By now, I have mostly solved the issues with USB playback, but I'm still curious about AOIP.

Can you please describe the chain of equipment and software needed to use Rednet3? I'm not clear as to how or where the data is originated to be delivered to this device (in Dante protocol?), and in particular, what software and/or remote control software can be used to drive it.

Thanks a lot!

You need a PC or Mac with an Ethernet port 1000 BaseT (standard on all modern computers). Then buy the Rednet 3. You get a Cat6 ethernet cable with it, and the free Dante Virtual sound card and Dante Controller software with the Rednet. It took me 30 minutes to get mine up and working. You can have a dead simple chain, no complex networks or switches. Mine is: Mac Mini > Ethernet out > Rednet 3 > AES or SPDIF out > AES or RCA Coax input to the DAC.

I play all music at resident sample rate, so either 44.1K, 88.2K or 96K, and I downsample Tidal MQA 192K to 96K. If you have a DS DAC you can leave MQA at 192K. I run Audirvana+ V3 on the Mac Mini.

The Rednet is so much more than an SPDIF converter. It avoid the pitfalls of USB data line and noisy power. It has excellent latency, and passes data perfect to the DAC. It is a bargain IMO at 899 USD from Sweetwater in the USA.

500x1000px-LL-1002c4aa_rednetinsystem2.jpeg

On USB there was always an annoying glaze of digital character to the treble in particular. I tried everything to erase that, but only managed to reduce it in amount, it was always there. With the Rednet it is GONE. I would characterise the sound as liquid, smooth, fast and dynamic. I can play super loud with no issues, piano is so realistic, female vocals superb. Put it another way, I use a £30K DAC, £28K speakers and amplifier, £10K headphone system, and the 899 USD the Rednet cost me made the biggest difference to my earlier upgrades and equipment.
 

audio.bill

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May 27, 2013
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I see the Rednet 3 available at Sweetwater for $999, how do you get it for $899? My other question if you'd be so kind is how do you convert from the 25 pin output for AES/EBU output to the conventional XLR connector? TIA for your time, it looks like a very straightforward way to entirely eliminate USB related issues from computer sourced digital audio.
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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You're not comparing apples to apples. All the products you mention are USB-based, and you're comparing to your choice, which is AES/EBU based.

I honestly haven't investigated AES/EBU or SPDIF based solutions, but they're out there. In smaller numbers, granted, given the preponderance of USB. But some products that I know work great over legacy connections are the Auralic Aries and the Aurender N10. Both will output AES/EBU or SPDIF, just like your Rednet, and both work over Ethernet (the Aurender actually has internal storage, so it doesn't need to go out on the network for the files).

I strongly urge you to test an Auralic. Even the Auralic Mini, at $400, outputs SPDIF, and might sound better than your Rednet. My guess is that you don't like the Rednet necessarily, you just didn't like the USB converters you've tried, with your choice of DAC. So, a different device, on the same port on your DAC, might do the trick just as good as the Rednet.

I haven't heard the Rednet because of the reasons I outlined before. It's a solution in search of a problem. It's too complex for real people, and its complexity derives from features that regular customers won't use.

In "computer audio", things must not only sound good, but also be simple and straightforward. Otherwise, you'll have the CD-spinning brigade poking fun of how "complex" it is, and it doesn't really have to be.


cheers,
alex

I have heard the Auralic and wasn't impressed by the sound of it TBH. It is great for the money, but sounded thin and flat in my setting. I did hear an Aurender at a dealer demo last year, I think it was an N100. It did sound good, but is not cheap, and I prefer to have control over the operating system. It also only used USB, the Ethernet was for an external drive of network connection. As I said, I was using USB then and had the Off-Ramp at the time for that demo.

I agree, the Rednet has 24 ports of which you would only use 4. But other than that, it is simple to use. The Dante Pro audio transfer protocol is excellent, it is more than just a network - Ethernet connection, and is optimised for audio. It is cheap IMO and has a very good Clock built in, with the facility to use an external word clock if desired. In my book, it offers superb sound for low cost and simplicity. Yes it would be nice if a consumer audio manufacturer made one, but they are all obsessed with USB, which IMO is going to be replaced soon by other methods. Some recent laptops don't even have USB now.

The clinging to USB by audio manufactures is not driven by sound quality, it is a numbers game as USB can support DSD and 512K. As my Rednet is AES or SPDIF out it 'just' limited to 192K. But as I said, I don't need to upsample or want to, so it suits my setup very well indeed.
 

Legolas

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I see the Rednet 3 available at Sweetwater for $999, how do you get it for $899? My other question if you'd be so kind is how do you convert from the 25 pin output for AES/EBU output to the conventional XLR connector? TIA for your time, it looks like a very straightforward way to entirely eliminate USB related issues from computer sourced digital audio.

Sweetwater can supply a cable for you, or you can hard wire a plug which you can buy from audio suppliers. I bought my Rednet 3 for 899, maybe of you ring them and ask for a discount, no hard in asking.

My USB nightmare journey is over thank goodness. I blew about 5K on various devices, sold them off at 50% loss or worse. AOIP is my happy place now. TBH I am well beyond my CEC CDP now. Into my Audio Note DAC 5 is sound absolutely insanely amazingly fantastically good. And that is no exaggeration....

I wrote a review on head-fi today, but here is my analogy of my previous USB sound v AOIP.

500x1000px-LL-7a95bf6e_noise.jpeg
USB
500x1000px-LL-8ade44c5_clear.jpeg
AOIP
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
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Again, you seem obsessed with USB. Forget USB for a moment.
Did you try the Auralic via the SPDIF output, on your current DAC? Or did you do the USB via one of your USB converters?
If you want a true Ethernet-based solution, bypassing any and all sorts of ports, look into the PS Audio DirectStream products. The Junior retails at $3999 including the DAC of course, is Roon compatible and will do DSD. You'll be able to get rid of the computer, and just use a NAS elsewhere in the house to host your files.
Of course, MSB and dCS now offer the same level of functionality, at a higher cost.
 

Legolas

VIP/Donor
Dec 27, 2015
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Again, you seem obsessed with USB. Forget USB for a moment.
Did you try the Auralic via the SPDIF output, on your current DAC? Or did you do the USB via one of your USB converters?
If you want a true Ethernet-based solution, bypassing any and all sorts of ports, look into the PS Audio DirectStream products. The Junior retails at $3999 including the DAC of course, is Roon compatible and will do DSD. You'll be able to get rid of the computer, and just use a NAS elsewhere in the house to host your files.
Of course, MSB and dCS now offer the same level of functionality, at a higher cost.

Yes I did try all outputs. Sorry, I forgot to mention that. It was flat and lifeless to me, yes great for the money, but hardly summit fi IMO.

I know the PS Audio produces. I run a P10 power regenerator. I have no interest in up sampling DACs they don't float my boat, YMMV but I never found wheat I wanted in that camp. I have tried Roon, but believe A+ as standalone sounds better. I don't need multi location / device facilities of Roon. I like the look of the interface mind.

My quest for data transfer to a DAC has been USB, Toslink, AES/EBU and SPDIF. I am not obsessed with USB, but saying I have done the rounds with it, and moved on. It may well be great in other configurations, but in my setting, it never sounded correct.
 

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