Usually do not see criticism this harsh.

Randall,
What a refreshing thing to see some of these products called out for a change. I, for one, am a little tired of always reading how magnificent an audio product is so long as it has a high price tag:mad:
For once, it seems that your writers are finally beginning to be a little more discriminatory and less easily swayed:cool:

BTW, I completely agree with Jason Thorpe in regards to the air quality in Vegas.. I just got back from there and the place reeks of smoke... I'm not going to hold my breath:eek: as to when the Nevadans will change their thinking on smoking in public places, BUT for anyone living or working in that environment, I suggest they hold theirs.:rolleyes:
 
Doug Schneider was spot on. I must have been in there a few minutes after his exit. When I went into the room Jonathan Valin was sitting there and Stop Making Sense was being played at ear splitting volume. It was like listening to a PA system. Extremely unmusical and downright unbearable. The funny thing is I went back the next day (I was in search of the new Weiss MAN 202 music server) and discovered an adjacent room in the suite that had the Weiss front end set up with a small pair of floor standing Venture speakers. It sounded musical and extremely involving. I'm sure the Weiss digital gear had a lot to do with it but the speakers did impress me. On the way out I listened to the big set up again. The volume was toned down but the speakers went from annoying to simply flat and boring.

There were obvious acoustic problems in the Avalon/Edge room. As you can see from the photo that is posted, there are ASC tube traps everywhere. What you can't see are two mammoth clear plastic Heimholtz resonators on either side of the speakers. The system sounded quite poor.

I understand that there is excitement over the Magico Q3 but I found them to be mediocre to poor. In fact I visited the room twice thinking hoping they would make some adjustments to the set up...or do something to bring them to life. While I didn't find the Q5 to be something special either it was a much more successful demonstration. For my taste the Q3 was the Emperor's new clothes. I simply don't get it and I can think of other speakers that I would want to spend that kind of money on ie. Rockport Ankaa or Mira Grand.

Another speaker that I thought was really poor was the Kaiser Kawero. I couldn't believe they are asking $66k for this speaker. Beautifully constructed and utterly lifeless. I also didn't hear any magic from the big Wilson/Lamm set up and I see from other posts I was not alone. The new Sonus Faber reference speaker was a disappointment to me as well. For that kind of money you should hear and see God and it wasn't happening.

I was impressed by (in no order), Magneplanar 3.7, the TAD room, Estelon (interesting speaker from Estonia), and the Vandersteen 7. I think my favorite sounding room was the Hansen/Tenor room. I haven't had the opportunity to audition Hansen speakers before and this set up made great music. Very involving.

Ken Golden
 
Not too harsh at all. Both TAS and Stereophile have become the Hi-Fi Stereo Review of the 21st century. I was so impressed that I will now become a regular reader. I wasn't there so can't comment on how his views may or may not align with mine, but it was very refreshing to read something that negative about any high end audio product.

Go get 'em !!!!!
 
Refreshing is the word ... I will not name any magazines be they print or "e" but TAS and Stereophile woould share such distinction with a good many magazines .. You got my attention people ...
 
Spoke with Jeff tonight and he said the response they are getting is a bit overwhelming and very surprising. The guys were getting positive feedback from their coverage almost as soon as it was posted. I believe we will see a bit more of this in the future. IMHO, complete honesty and objectivity are missing from the audio press. It is a fine line we will have to walk. Some companies will shy away from sending in products because they are afraid of a poor review. But, in the end, the fat will be cut. Companies slapping in a bunch of drivers in a shiny box and hanging a six figure price tag on it should be put in check. There are a lot of honest companies out there that do things the right way and get bad reps because of these companies. I think it will be good for the industry to have a little more objectivity and I believe it will make audio reviews more informative and also a lot more fun to read.
 
Doug Schneider was spot on. I must have been in there a few minutes after his exit. When I went into the room Jonathan Valin was sitting there and Stop Making Sense was being played at ear splitting volume. It was like listening to a PA system. Extremely unmusical and downright unbearable. The funny thing is I went back the next day (I was in search of the new Weiss MAN 202 music server) and discovered an adjacent room in the suite that had the Weiss front end set up with a small pair of floor standing Venture speakers. It sounded musical and extremely involving. I'm sure the Weiss digital gear had a lot to do with it but the speakers did impress me. On the way out I listened to the big set up again. The volume was toned down but the speakers went from annoying to simply flat and boring.

There were obvious acoustic problems in the Avalon/Edge room. As you can see from the photo that is posted, there are ASC tube traps everywhere. What you can't see are two mammoth clear plastic Heimholtz resonators on either side of the speakers. The system sounded quite poor.

I understand that there is excitement over the Magico Q3 but I found them to be mediocre to poor. In fact I visited the room twice thinking hoping they would make some adjustments to the set up...or do something to bring them to life. While I didn't find the Q5 to be something special either it was a much more successful demonstration. For my taste the Q3 was the Emperor's new clothes. I simply don't get it and I can think of other speakers that I would want to spend that kind of money on ie. Rockport Ankaa or Mira Grand.

Another speaker that I thought was really poor was the Kaiser Kawero. I couldn't believe they are asking $66k for this speaker. Beautifully constructed and utterly lifeless. I also didn't hear any magic from the big Wilson/Lamm set up and I see from other posts I was not alone. The new Sonus Faber reference speaker was a disappointment to me as well. For that kind of money you should hear and see God and it wasn't happening.

I was impressed by (in no order), Magneplanar 3.7, the TAD room, Estelon (interesting speaker from Estonia), and the Vandersteen 7. I think my favorite sounding room was the Hansen/Tenor room. I haven't had the opportunity to audition Hansen speakers before and this set up made great music. Very involving.

Ken Golden

Ken:

Did you listen to tape or digital on the Magicos? They were a different speaker with tape. I think that went for me with most systems. I wouldn't give them a plumb nickel for the digital sound; with analog, the sound was frequently a different story.
 
Myles:

Both times I heard the Q3, digital playback was used exclusively. It was a bit surprising since Michael Fremer was sitting front and center but Alon Wolf seemed very enamored with his iPad controller. I would have thought he would have used that beautiful looking tape machine. I listened to the Q5 and while it didn't set my world on fire I could understand that it could match with someone's taste other than mine. I couldn't say the same thing about the Q3. I was overwhelmed by its mediocrity. I felt that way when I heard the Magico Mini years ago as well so your mileage may vary. I guess I'm just not a Magico kind of a guy. :)

When mentioning speakers that made favorable impressions I had a brain fart and forgot to mention the Tidal Sunray. Both rooms demonstrated pure quality and class.

Regards,
Ken Golden

P.S. - I think we met many years ago hanging out at Audio Breakthroughs. I was quite friendly with Jeff Mantell.
 
Myles:

Both times I heard the Q3, digital playback was used exclusively. It was a bit surprising since Michael Fremer was sitting front and center but Alon Wolf seemed very enamored with his iPad controller. I would have thought he would have used that beautiful looking tape machine. I listened to the Q5 and while it didn't set my world on fire I could understand that it could match with someone's taste other than mine. I couldn't say the same thing about the Q3. I was overwhelmed by its mediocrity. I felt that way when I heard the Magico Mini years ago as well so your mileage may vary. I guess I'm just not a Magico kind of a guy. :)

When mentioning speakers that made favorable impressions I had a brain fart and forgot to mention the Tidal Sunray. Both rooms demonstrated pure quality and class.

Regards,
Ken Golden

P.S. - I think we met many years ago hanging out at Audio Breakthroughs. I was quite friendly with Jeff Mantell.

I think that would have made all the difference in the world. The digital front end (PM HDCD) left me cold.



LOL....met someone else at CES who used to hang out at AB and was talking about Jeff, Bobby and Joel :)
 
Who knows, the iPad might have been more interesting to interact with. "Oooooh, did he really say that?"

Seriously, thanks for the feedback on the report. Really, though, it's nothing new -- at least for me. I'm as outspoken as they come and, well, we finally put some of that in a show report. Why? Quite simply because there are a number of companies that are making crap and putting a high price tag on it and it's time someone says something. The way it used to work is nobody said anything and then they'll often find some reviewer to praise it, and then they might find some sucker to buy it. That stuff's never flown with me.

It is worth mentioning that we do have a strong mandate at the SoundStage! Network to be more direct with our writing. I don't think people read audio reviews and features for entertainment. Rather, they want to know something about the products being discussed.

Doug Schneider, www.SoundStageNetwork.com
 
To pan or not to pan...

As a reviewer, it's always a bit of a dilemma when one receives a substandard product.

If there's one weak feature (sonically) out of, say, 4-5 good ones, run the review. For some readers, the weak feature could well be unimportant to their use case, and they'd get to enjoy all the other good points. Perfectionism is not a beneficial approach.

If there are more problems, gently return the gear and spend as much time as necessary to help the manufacturer understand what's wrong with it, if they're willing to listen. Some vendors have crappy products that are selling well, so what do they care? But other companies are more open to suggestions, although few transcend the usual personality issues and are more interested in criticism than accolades.

Many of these companies are Mom and Pop operations, or perhaps just Pop, and it would be inhumane to run a scathing review, to put it mildly. It could put them out of business, but with some coaching, they could improve their present product, or get on the pathway to making something much better in the future. Not every designer has the ability and good luck to start out with a killer design right off the bat.

One well-established manufacturer recently sent me some gear, which, after weeks of working or rather struggling with it, in my opinion, simply failed to live up to any kind of reasonable expecations as to what such a device, at a rather significant price point, should do. (For those of you who know what I'm talking about, not a peep :) ) Almost nothing worked as advertised, and as one explored the nooks and crannies, it just went from bad to worse. And its substandard-design created problems elsewhere in my system. Great!

The vendor apparently thought that the review process meant regurgitating their standard spiel about how to use the product and what it did. While we don't necessarily reverse-engineer EPROMs and FPGAs to check on the convulution kernel code being used and all that, we do go into every single feature to make sure that it really works as advertised, and thus protect consumers from unpleasant surprises. For this product, such as approach was a disaster. There were gremlins, serious gremlins, everywhere. So back it went. The vendor was disappointed, but they took it well overall. They realized that if they want to play in the high-end arena, the product really has to deliver the goods. Better to have someone say you're not ready, and fix things up, than to stumble badly and not be able to recover.

In the end, my approach is to publish reviews of gear that can be recommended whole-heartedly. Anyone who owns the product should be really happy with it. And the reviews are structured in such as way as to set down standards against which a consumer could compare it to other products.

My opinion is that it's really hard to learn that much from unfavorable reviews. Better to encourage readers to use their own ears, and compare what they read about in a favorable review to what they're hearing in a store or with borrowed gear in their home listening room. And to start asking questions.
 
Ken:

Did you listen to tape or digital on the Magicos? They were a different speaker with tape. I think that went for me with most systems. I wouldn't give them a plumb nickel for the digital sound; with analog, the sound was frequently a different story.
Funny you should ask that. When I walked in, I saw the Nagra tape deck and wanted to hear it. So I asked Dan to play a tape project tape. As soon as he tried to do that, someone started to play something else digital. Dan asked if it was OK if he played the tape for me. He said yes and he proceeded. The experience was quite nice. I left after that and did not hear the digital system.
 
As a reviewer, it's always a bit of a dilemma when one receives a substandard product.

If there's one weak feature (sonically) out of, say, 4-5 good ones, run the review. For some readers, the weak feature could well be unimportant to their use case, and they'd get to enjoy all the other good points. Perfectionism is not a beneficial approach.

If there are more problems, gently return the gear and spend as much time as necessary to help the manufacturer understand what's wrong with it, if they're willing to listen. Some vendors have crappy products that are selling well, so what do they care?
While I agree with your first statement, I do not agree with the second. A product submitted and accepted for review while, simultaneously, made available to the public for purchase must be reviewed as-is. If the reviewer thinks the particular sample is defective, an additional sample can be requested but the inherent properties cannot be ignored. We should be acting as consultants to the to the reader, not to manufacturers.

Kal
 
Hi Nicholas,

I can't agree at all with your comments. What it's saying is that if a product is submitted for review the review will get published if it's positive, nothing will be said if it's not. I wish I could have gambled in Vegas this way -- lay my money on the table and I get it back nothing said even when I lose.

If you take that approach the "reviewing" process turns to a bad joke.

DS @ SoundStageNetwork.com
 
What it's saying is that if a product is submitted for review the review will get published if it's positive, nothing will be said if it's not.

And yet to some extent this has always been true for audio reviewing, with some justification. It makes much more sense to give limited print space to something positive rather than something negative. OTOH, even with this philosophy perspective could be greatly improved by simply listing which products have been submitted for review and then let readers draw their own conclusions.
 
Hi rbbert,

There are some distinctions to be made. Nicholas talks about basically sending the product back, nothing said. We're not into that unless it's proven to be truly defective -- i.e., the sample is not even representative of manufacturing, so there's no use.

But once the item is in house, it's in house. In my opinion, you then have to deal with it.

Recently we published two reviews that I think would have been "pulled" with a policy to only review positively. We don't do that. Here are the links (note: we are a Network, so that's why they're on different sites):

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...peakers&catid=55:full-length-reviews&Itemid=4

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...-cables&catid=37:full-length-reviews&Itemid=2

Doug Schneider @ SoundStageNetwork.com
 
As a Webzine, though, you may not have the same degree of "space" limitations as a print magazine. Even so, I can remember plenty of less than enthusiastic reviews in Stereophile and others, and I suspect that I'm not alone when I read that as negative (especially with a high-priced item).
 
I'm glad Soundstage has the huevos to publish such stuff.

otherwise as Doug insinuates---its just a shill for the manufacturers. manufacturers should be able to respond to unfavorable reviews of course. but what is the point of reviewing if a manufacturer is guaranteed a great review? now i must admit that reviewers of equipment should be chosen sensibly---a big SS guy shouldn't be reviewing SET for example.

i've seen a lot more unfavorable reviews in Stereophile over the past year or two (thank you Mike Fremer among others). The Absolute Sound is the opposite and seems to me a bunch of people that just review their own systems. i can't remember seeing a negative review on Positive Feedback recently, but perhaps Myles can forward me to one.
 
I think the approach Nicholas took is a HUGE disservice to readers. As has been previously noted, it a piece of garbage is presented for review and it is not worthy of it claims, then that needs to be published. Not only will it keep an unsuspecting public from purchasing the item, it should also serve notice to other manufacturers that submitting crap has its risks. And ultimately that benefits consumers and the industry.

And I must be getting a different subscription to Stereophile. Not many negative reviews that I can remember.

Kudos to those (very, very, very few)who are willing to tell it like it is.
 
My approach can be summarized by guidance a long-time friend and highly successful architect gave me once... He said "you don't learn anything useful by studying bad architecture". I tend to agree. One can produce positive reviews that are critical, rigorous, and informative. The evaluation of a good product lays out the performance criteria against which others can be evaluated by the reader. And they can do this by listening.

Only products likely to be outstanding and important for consumers to know about are even considered for review in the first place, and secondly, if it turns out they aren't, the review is cancelled. Not all writers agree with this, and some reviews published are definitely and appropriately negative. Each to his own.

@audioguy... the manufacturers who have their gear sent back without a review generally respond positively, which benefits them and the readers. So a year later, the new and truly imroved version comes out. That's an ideal outcome.

@das... It always seems like reviewers get the one unit out of a production run with a bad solder joint or a loose cable harness... but if it can be easily corrected and doesn't seem to reflect anything systematic, no problem. Common carriers do seem to have perfected the "destructive testing" paradigm.

We've all read reviews in which the writer seems to be avoiding saying what should be said, and that leaves the readers wondering. There's so much good stuff available today, seems like a waste of the reader's attention on a turkey. Just concentrate on the wonderful gear that's available, there's no shortage of it, and forget about the rest. Guide people to what they really want and should know about. That's my approach.
 
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