Visit to DDK

[marty]

Great report Ron. Your descriptors and terminology were excellent in helping the reader really understand your impressions. One thing that wasn't quite clear to me. Did all the tables have a Neumann cartridge installed? Or were the cartridges different on the AS, EMT and Thorens tables?

I'm getting the impression that any visit to David's must include an obligatory performance of some sort by his daughters. For me, it was a piano recital at their school. And I enjoyed every minute of it!

 

[DaveyF]

Amen, brother.

I had always dismissed Koetsu's. I liked Lyra's and Decca's and pointy, tizzy cartridges, but mainly because I was using an LP12 with a unipivot. Once I heard a Koetsu mounted on a heavy arm on an idler and the energy was restored to the platter rather than being robbed by the belt and the suspension of the Linn I flew to Japan and begged Sugano-san for forgiveness for ever doubting his greatness.*

853guy

*That's a lie. But in hindsight, perhaps I should have.

What vintage LP12 are you talking about...? Today's LP12 with Radikal D and Keel does not sound anything like you described. IMHO, the ability of the current version to show up the failings of almost all direct drive tables is even more obvious than ever....can we say 'cogging'!! As to the typical idler TT, IMHO the idler wheel interface is always a turnoff. Impossible to isolate it and IF one can truly hear into the highest regions, very easy to hear and a major distraction. BTW, I am also no fan of unipivot arms..the Naim Aro ( presumably the arm you were using) always had a certain glare that I suspect was caused by the pivot chattering on the point.

 

[BruceD]

Ah Excellent writeup Ron and to experience the "Holy Grails" of Audio playback--Kudos and pleasing for your quest --being at the stage it is to experience gear you will be endowed with for your own.

Such an Aladin's cave of wonderment plus such genial hosts--is a jewel to cherish--

Myself I spent 3 years in Southern Nevada--and many road trips snapping Pics to and around Davids' area--- tis a Photo nutters paradise of seasons and colour:b

let us know any more snippets that come to mind!

Good Listening

BruceD

 

[853guy]

What vintage LP12 are you talking about...? Today's LP12 with Radikal D and Keel does not sound anything like you described. IMHO, the ability of the current version to show up the failings of almost all direct drive tables is even more obvious than ever....can we say 'cogging'!! As to the typical idler TT, IMHO the idler wheel interface is always a turnoff. Impossible to isolate it and IF one can truly hear into the highest regions, very easy to hear and a major distraction. BTW, I am also no fan of unipivot arms..the Naim Aro ( presumably the arm you were using) always had a certain glare that I suspect was caused by the pivot chattering on the point.

Ruh-roh... I’ve invoked the wrath of the devoted…! Teehee.

But yes, as you've guessed, an early 90’s LP12, Keel, Cirkus, Trampolin 2, Armageddon, and yes, with an Aro (and various Lyra’s, Decca’s, Ortofon’s, Benz’s and although it was never going to work, a couple of Koetsu’s), sold, along with all my olive badge stuff many moons ago. In those days, you were either all in or all out, and eventually, I went for the all out option.

Since then, I’ve explored belt-drive, DD’s and idlers, and found a lot to like in each. They’re all unique, all have pros and cons, and all can offer something worth listening to and arguing about. But in terms of character DDK alludes to in his previous post, they’ll never offer the same type of experience, which is what makes vinyl so fascinating and rewarding, especially now with its resurgence and growing number of dedicated manufacturers. I'm not sure we've ever had it so good.

Be well, DaveyF.

853guy

 

[bonzo75]

I think to listen to quieter idlers one needs to listen to modded Thorens 124 (Schopper or STS) or PTP Lenco. There is one guy with these along with Technics sp 10, LP12, and Lorricraft Garrard. Will be visiting him sometime

 

[JackD201]

I think to listen to quieter idlers one needs to listen to modded Thorens 124 (Schopper or STS) or PTP Lenco. There is one guy with these along with Technics sp 10, LP12, and Lorricraft Garrard. Will be visiting him sometime

Add true Shindos to that list Ked.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Add true Shindos to that list Ked.

and, of course, there is the Saskia II.....the ultimate Idler.

 

[bonzo75]

Add true Shindos to that list Ked.

The guy with the Shindo 301 replaced it with the top audiograil 301 in BobC plinth, he said he lost a little but gained more on money, and also got in a Schopper Thorens 124 to replace his SME 30/2 and Brinkmann Lagrange. Both of us prefer his Schopper the most.

 

[853guy]

and, of course, there is the Saskia II.....the ultimate Idler.

This is my unicorn.

853guy

 

[jdza]

The guy with the Shindo 301 replaced it with the top audiograil 301 in BobC plinth, he said he lost a little but gained more on money, and also got in a Schopper Thorens 124 to replace his SME 30/2 and Brinkmann Lagrange. Both of us prefer his Schopper the most.

Visitors here are often surprised at the sonic family resemblance between the Thorens TD 124 and Reference. The Ref is so much more but more of the same.

 

[JackD201]

The guy with the Shindo 301 replaced it with the top audiograil 301 in BobC plinth, he said he lost a little but gained more on money, and also got in a Schopper Thorens 124 to replace his SME 30/2 and Brinkmann Lagrange. Both of us prefer his Schopper the most.

I actually prefer TD124s to 301s in general as well. BUT! Since 124's idler wheel is driven by a belt.... is it a true idler? I'm just making light of this because it is a debate that has been going on for as long as I can remember. In reality it is not an issue for me personally.

 

[853guy]

I actually prefer TD124s to 301s in general as well. BUT! Since 124's idler wheel is driven by a belt.... is it a true idler? I'm just making light of this because it is a debate that has been going on for as long as I can remember. In reality it is not an issue for me personally.

Hi Jack,

I could live with either. Or both. And a Lenco. And while we're at it, a Nakamichi TX-1000 if for no other reason that I imagine it looks really cool when it's dark.

Best,

853guy

 

[JackD201]

Oh yes it does! That self centering thing is a hoot! I have all the above mentioned tables as far from my house as I can hit my driver on a wet day. I have very cool neighbors

 

[853guy]

Oh yes it does! That self centering thing is a hoot! I have all the above mentioned tables as far from my house as I can hit my driver on a wet day. I have very cool neighbors

Aw, really? Sheesh....

My neighbour has a Meridian 500 Series with M20's that's been abandoned in an attic corner. He does, however, have an incredible wine cellar, so that more than makes up for it.

853guy

 

[JackD201]

Gotta say. lots of great tables here but I really, really want to visit David and see his babies. Back on topic! Pretty slick huh? LOL!

I'm gonna get there someday David!

 

[DaveyF]

Ruh-roh... I’ve invoked the wrath of the devoted…! Teehee.

But yes, as you've guessed, an early 90’s LP12, Keel, Cirkus, Trampolin 2, Armageddon, and yes, with an Aro (and various Lyra’s, Decca’s, Ortofon’s, Benz’s and although it was never going to work, a couple of Koetsu’s), sold, along with all my olive badge stuff many moons ago. In those days, you were either all in or all out, and eventually, I went for the all out option.

Since then, I’ve explored belt-drive, DD’s and idlers, and found a lot to like in each. They’re all unique, all have pros and cons, and all can offer something worth listening to and arguing about. But in terms of character DDK alludes to in his previous post, they’ll never offer the same type of experience, which is what makes vinyl so fascinating and rewarding, especially now with its resurgence and growing number of dedicated manufacturers. I'm not sure we've ever had it so good.

Be well, DaveyF.

853guy

853guy, if you have the opportunity to listen to a 'current' LP12 at the Klimax level with a Radikal D, I would suggest you do so. The difference between your vintage LP12 and the current model will open your eyes...never mind your ears! The 'Geddon' power supply was, IMO, a poor kludge for a Valhalla...and not even competitive with a later Lingo. Tramp 2 came out in the last few years, so I suspect you are talking about Tramp 1----which was not that great a mod ( certainly compared to the current Tramp2).

As an aside, I recently heard a beautifully restored EMT 948 with an Ortofon SPU. Very nice sound, although I think today there are a lot of tables and carts that will show its faults ( minor that they may be).

 

[bonzo75]

853guy, if you have the opportunity to listen to a 'current' LP12 at the Klimax level with a Radikal D, I would suggest you do so. The difference between your vintage LP12 and the current model will open your eyes...never mind your ears! The 'Geddon' power supply was, IMO, a poor kludge for a Valhalla...and not even competitive with a later Lingo. Tramp 2 came out in the last few years, so I suspect you are talking about Tramp 1----which was not that great a mod ( certainly compared to the current Tramp2).

As an aside, I recently heard a beautifully restored EMT 948 with an Ortofon SPU. Very nice sound, although I think today there are a lot of tables and carts that will show its faults ( minor that they may be).

I heard a recent LP12 which killed the AR CD 7 on an Apogee Diva system with Cello amps biamped. Had never heard the Cellos before.

I think the older SPUs are rolled off. I heard the SPU anniversary a85 with Schick arm on the Caeles turntable and the Nottingham Analog (not sure model) TT and it was extremely good, much better than his Clearaudio Innovation and Benz. But then Schick is made for SPUs. Also, I understand that SPUs came about in Japan because people use to sit in small rooms close to big horns with high treble energy, and that needed taming. With this horn that worked very well. I think DDK now has most of the anniversary SPUs as well as the Xpression.

 

[853guy]

853guy, if you have the opportunity to listen to a 'current' LP12 at the Klimax level with a Radikal D, I would suggest you do so. The difference between your vintage LP12 and the current model will open your eyes...never mind your ears! The 'Geddon' power supply was, IMO, a poor kludge for a Valhalla...and not even competitive with a later Lingo. Tramp 2 came out in the last few years, so I suspect you are talking about Tramp 1----which was not that great a mod ( certainly compared to the current Tramp2).

Hey Davey,

Yes, of course - Trampolin 1. The truth is by the time the newer upgrades were ready for release I was sick and tired of tweaking, adjusting and upgrading. The whole Linn/Naim thing just became too much of a “thing”. It’s entirely possible the current iteration of the LP12 is everything you say it is, but for me, there’s many other very capable and compelling options out there, some offering very high levels of playback for less, albeit with very different strengths/weaknesses (i.e. character).

Turntables for me are like wine. One can argue a Bordeaux’s where it’s at, but there’s just as many from Burgundy, Alsace, Languedoc-Roussillon and the Rhône Valley that can offer something just as interesting and just as enjoyable. Were you to say a Gewürztraminer from the Haut-Rhin or a Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand was your preferred drop I would not question it for a second.

I heard a recent LP12 which killed the AR CD 7 on an Apogee Diva system with Cello amps biamped. Had never heard the Cellos before.

Hey Bonzo,

It’s not exactly the most earth-shattering comment you’ve ever made, though you could have said you heard a recent LP12 which was killed by an AR CD7 and given the number of variables involved in setting up any turntable within its inherent limits, I’d have been even less surprised. Like most asymmetrical complex systems, they're only ever as good as the sum of the parts, and often much less so.

Be well, gentlemen.

853guy

 

[ddk]

Gotta say. lots of great tables here but I really, really want to visit David and see his babies. Back on topic! Pretty slick huh? LOL!

I'm gonna get there someday David!

Waiting for you Jack and in absence of decent Thai restaurants here I've become quite a proficient cook myself, David's Dine, Wine & Music Stop !

david

 

[steve williams]

Waiting for you Jack and in absence of decent Thai restaurants here I've become quite a proficient cook myself, David's Dine, Wine & Music Stop !

david

I thought the one we had take out from wasn't bad