What are the best tweaks in your experience?

[Republicoftexas69]

Paying someone who is an expert to help you is not what your implying. If you know how to do something thats great but if you don't then perhaps you can learn a better way. I dont see it as stupid to find someone to teach me what I don't know.

I have had some assistance from my local dealer (bought 90% of my gear from) and he did not charge a dime. Paying some one to run room correction software is a bit daft from my point of view. But I will consider that some can not and may be willing to pay someone. I did not need Valentino Rossi to take my Ducati Panigale V4 R for a ride to know it will do 200 mph on the back straight at COTA. Nope did it myself.

 

[sbnx]

1's and 0's only exist in digital logic text books. In the real word 1's and 0's are represented by square waves that are some "high" voltage (say 2 Volts or 5 Volts) and 0 volts. Some producs produce better square waves than others but at the end of the day it is still an analog signal that is going through the router and down the wire. It is just as subject to noise. The noise causes timing issues that things like computers don't care about but when trying to reproduce music make the thing sound bad (or good).

 

[henrich3]

Nope, that's not correct. They also pass noise which is why my adding a Venom PS8 and a Sortz Supreme made such a difference in sound quality.

Ethernet data frames are either perfect or they're discarded. No noise. I have no doubt that you believe that it sounds better however.

 

[henrich3]

1's and 0's only exist in digital logic text books. In the real word 1's and 0's are represented by square waves that are some "high" voltage (say 2 Volts or 5 Volts) and 0 volts. Some producs produce better square waves than others but at the end of the day it is still an analog signal that is going through the router and down the wire. It is just as subject to noise. The noise causes timing issues that things like computers don't care about but when trying to reproduce music make the thing sound bad (or good).

Routers pass digital data - not analog signals. Again, the data frames are either perfect, or they're discarded & resent (perfect), or there's so much data loss (dropped frames) that you experience audio dropouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet
"Systems communicating over Ethernet divide a stream of data into shorter pieces called frames. Each frame contains source and destination addresses, and error-checking data so that damaged frames can be detected and discarded; most often, higher-layer protocols trigger retransmission of lost frames."

 

[Elliot G.]

I have had some assistance from my local dealer (bought 90% of my gear from) and he did not charge a dime. Paying some one to run room correction software is a bit daft from my point of view. But I will consider that some can not and may be willing to pay someone. I did not need Valentino Rossi to take my Ducati Panigale V4 R for a ride to know it will do 200 mph on the back straight at COTA. Nope did it myself.

I doubt you are going to like my response but since we are in deep on this subject here goes.
Having someone help you , particularly the two gentleman mentioned here before, dont run room correction. They are experienced people that have done set ups for many years and are quite good on helping the system owner achieve better sound. If you do some research, even on WBF , there are many here that have used their services. I am familiar with both and think they both do excellent work. This is VERY different than most dealers , who dont get paid to do this, want to deliver the products, make them work and leave. Most wouldnt know how to do a serious set up ( opps thats sad but true). I am not saying all dealers are bad or dont know including yours however if they came to your home and did not make improvements that is not much of a reccomendation for their skill set. Maybe if Mr. Rossi came to your home and taught you the best way to use your bike that would be a better analogy. If you tried it you might actually like it.
No one is trying to tell you or anyone else what they should or should not like but rather someone is trying to improve what you have and help you learn more about the system and how it works and perhaps can be improved.
When I buy a new golf club and get it professionally fitted I am not expecting someone from Titleist to play for me.... the logic makes no sense

 

[sbnx]

Routers pass digital data - not analog signals. Again, the data frames are either perfect, or they're discarded & resent (perfect), or there's so much data loss (dropped frames) that you experience audio dropouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet
"Systems communicating over Ethernet divide a stream of data into shorter pieces called frames. Each frame contains source and destination addresses, and error-checking data so that damaged frames can be detected and discarded; most often, higher-layer protocols trigger retransmission of lost frames."

Thank you for the Wikipedia link. I appreciate someone who offers information. And I am being serious.

I do understand how digital works. I have BS degrees in Mechanical engineering and Physics and MS in Physics and have worked the past 25 years in microelectronics. So, the aforementioned education had me convinced, like you, for a long, long time that things like power conditioners didn't matter and that bits were bits and it was all perfect. And that DSP was the best thing since the gramaphone. (I used TacT RCS 2.0s for several years).

At a point I started to try a few things and listen with my ears just to see what all the hoopla was about. The first was a power conditioner that removed noise. That was a huge sonic improvement. I was shocked. In fact, the only reason I bought it was that it came with a 90 day money back guarantee. I never sent it back. At this point I have experienced things that I truly don't understand how or why it could possibly make that kind of difference. But it does and this is not a placebo effect. I am not interested in things that I have to squint to hear a difference. If it is not immediately obvious then it didn't work. Another obvious thing was when I put stillpoint Ultra 5's under my Esoteric P02 CD transport. I listend to the first 10-15 seconds of a song 5 times. Inserted the stillpoints and pressed play. before I even sat down I could clearly hear a difference. In fact this is my go-to demo for people who believe footers don't matter.

Please don't say that switches and ethernet cables don't matter based on a text book understanding of digital audio. I see you are using a Trinnov. Nothing wrong with that. But that means you are likely pretty far down the DSP rabbit hole. Again, nothing wrong with that. I did it for several years. If you have tried different switches this could be why you don't hear a difference between them. Have you tried the new BacchSSP? Supposedly it is a game changer for those that use DSP. It is on my list of things to demo at AXPONA this year. I am excited to see what I think about the way it sounds and if it can make music or just cool sound effects.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I know you don’t

So provide us with the data, snotty-pants.

What is the list of contemporary speaker systems which de-tweaked?

What is the list of vintage speaker systems which de-tweaked?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hey friends,

Was wondering what tweaks or devices you have inm your system that have made a sound quality difference for you? room treatments

4' x 8' x 2" acoustic panels on the side walls de-confuse the imaging, and allow a clearer "soundstage" to emerge.

4' x 8' x 2" acoustic panels on the front wall behind the loudspeakers can take the edge off of a bright upper midrange or treble area.

 

[bonzo75]

So provide us with the data, snotty-pants.

What is the list of contemporary speaker systems which de-tweaked?

What is the list of vintage speaker systems which de-tweaked?

you started it, that vintage speaker systems less likely to employ tweaks as compared to ..I don’t believe it has anything to do with the speaker. So no data required.

 

[Ron Resnick]

you started it, that vintage speaker systems less likely to employ tweaks as compared to ..I don’t believe it has anything to do with the speaker. So no data required.

We have two data points:

Peter and Tim de-tweaked when they went from contemporary loudspeakers to vintage loudspeakers.

 

[TooCool4]

The last things I put in my system that made a big difference, are Symposium Acoustics Svelte Shelf & Rollerblock’s under the speakers.

 

[PeterA]

We have two data points:

Peter and Tim de-tweaked when they went from contemporary loudspeakers to vintage loudspeakers.

That is not true Ron. I de-tweaked my old Magico Pass SME system. I describe the whole process in my sublime sound system thread. By the time I bought my new system, I was already well aware of the effects and value of the things I removed from my old system.

 

[sbnx]

We have two data points:

Peter and Tim de-tweaked when they went from contemporary loudspeakers to vintage loudspeakers.

This does make some sense to me. For example, let's say someone had dynamic driver speakers with good off axis response and had added absorption panels to the side walls to mute the reflections. Then this person changed over to a horn speaker that is very directional. They would not likely need to panels on the side walls any longer and would probably like the sound better without them. In the same scenario if the person had added tweaks that added a sense of dynamics to the system, they may no longer need these with the already dynamic horns.

 

[Cellcbern]

We have two data points:

Peter and Tim de-tweaked when they went from contemporary loudspeakers to vintage loudspeakers.

Which doesn't mean that a new/different set of tweaks wouldn't improve the sound of their systems.

 

[henrich3]

Thank you for the Wikipedia link. I appreciate someone who offers information. And I am being serious.

I do understand how digital works. I have BS degrees in Mechanical engineering and Physics and MS in Physics and have worked the past 25 years in microelectronics. So, the aforementioned education had me convinced, like you, for a long, long time that things like power conditioners didn't matter and that bits were bits and it was all perfect. And that DSP was the best thing since the gramaphone. (I used TacT RCS 2.0s for several years).

At a point I started to try a few things and listen with my ears just to see what all the hoopla was about. The first was a power conditioner that removed noise. That was a huge sonic improvement. I was shocked. In fact, the only reason I bought it was that it came with a 90 day money back guarantee. I never sent it back. At this point I have experienced things that I truly don't understand how or why it could possibly make that kind of difference. But it does and this is not a placebo effect. I am not interested in things that I have to squint to hear a difference. If it is not immediately obvious then it didn't work. Another obvious thing was when I put stillpoint Ultra 5's under my Esoteric P02 CD transport. I listend to the first 10-15 seconds of a song 5 times. Inserted the stillpoints and pressed play. before I even sat down I could clearly hear a difference. In fact this is my go-to demo for people who believe footers don't matter.

Please don't say that switches and ethernet cables don't matter based on a text book understanding of digital audio. I see you are using a Trinnov. Nothing wrong with that. But that means you are likely pretty far down the DSP rabbit hole. Again, nothing wrong with that. I did it for several years. If you have tried different switches this could be why you don't hear a difference between them. Have you tried the new BacchSSP? Supposedly it is a game changer for those that use DSP. It is on my list of things to demo at AXPONA this year. I am excited to see what I think about the way it sounds and if it can make music or just cool sound effects.

In a previous life I was a Systems Administrator on several secure networks at government facilities. My education included "Advanced Cisco Router Configuration" and "Cisco Catalyst 5000 Switch Configuration" classes. That's all in the brain fog now, but I do, I believe, have sufficient familiarity with digital data transmission to have addressed the claim about routers & sound quality.

I'm an outlier in this forum in that I'm both an objectivist and a home theater guy. I do listen to music on occasion in my theater, but primarily its movies. I don't stream and I don't use a router in the HT. I use a UHD Blu-ray player as my source for both music & movies. I recently upgraded my audio to a 6.2.6 configuration (six overhead speakers). My Trinnov can upmix stereo or 5.1 audio to include the overhead speakers (Dolby Surround upmixer). I am having a little fun these days listening to music with the upmixer active. Stereo is nice, but this is even better IMO. For example, I was never into Pink Floyd back in the day, but my 5.1 SACD of Dark Side of the Moon sounds awesome in the theater. The Dolby Atmos music disc Yello Point is amazing as well.

Anyway, no worries on disagreements about any of this. I usually expect that my views on things won't be accepted by most in this forum. That's fine. I toss in my two cents & if anyone benefits from it, great. If not, no biggie...

Cheers.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Spending money on better primary gear vs 'a well tweaked high value system'. Perhaps there is no 'right' way and one's viewpoint likely the result of experience. Seems like what counts as 'a tweak' is all over the map -- typical language issue. Tweak as a thing (noun) or as an activity (verb).

Cellcbern talks about what I call audio infrastructure: electricity, vibration, acoustics. These seem like basics to me. They may be called tweaks because so many come to addressing these after they've plopped a bunch of gear in their room. Perhaps if we knew then what we know now we'd pay attention to infrastructure as a starting point rather than as 'fix'.

In general I don't think of speaker positioning as a tweak. Like infrastructure I consider it a fundamental. But if we use 'tweak' by one of its dictionary definitions, namely 'a minor adjustment', speaker and listening seat positioning can end up as making minor adjustments, often over a period of time. I'm doing some of that now with my M9500s. At the 'audiophile level' isn't it a necessary activity? Are necessary activities tweaks? For example, keeping my records clean is a necessary activity, not a tweak. I don't think of a rack as a tweak. Getting the gear off the carpet is necessary.



We might call this tweaking oneself ! Learning, or at least paying attention to a hired expert is a positive.

Yes, lots of semantics in this discussion - we never managed to have an official definition of tweak in WBF.

The OP is more focused on tweaks as things:

Over the past few years I'm more engaged in getting rid of those sorts of tweaks than acquiring them. It is probably heresy to most -- but there it is. Stillpoint Ultra 5s under my Alexias and other footers - gone.

Well, you are probably using the "standard" tweak that come with the speaker - the Wilson solid spike system. I also never tried anything else in Wilson Audio speakers.

Noise reduction wires - gone.

But you replaced them with other wires. Isn't choosing any wires a tweak, independently of price? Vintage wire surely has a characteristic sound, due to chemical reactions with the out-gassing of old plastics and age that create layers with semiconductor properties in the surface of conductors.

Thirteen acoustic panels in my room - twelve are gone

It is the advice written in the manuals of Wilson Audio speakers ...

. Power distributor/conditioner - gone.

We should not use them with Lamm electronics - they can adversely react with the Lamm chosen power conditioners included in their equipment.

My de-tweaking allows musical energy (vitality, vivacity) robbed by those tweaks to return to my room. Still rolling tubes after all these years; I suppose thats a tweak.

Did you also take out the extremely powerful feedback responsible for the high stability of your turntable? We can consider it a factory tweak ...

IMO most of the time de-tweaking can be considered a tweak!

 

[tima]

We have two data points:

Peter and Tim de-tweaked when they went from contemporary loudspeakers to vintage loudspeakers.

Please don't make things up, Ron.

 

[microstrip]

In a previous life I was a Systems Administrator on several secure networks at government facilities. My education included "Advanced Cisco Router Configuration" and "Cisco Catalyst 5000 Switch Configuration" classes. That's all in the brain fog now, but I do, I believe, have sufficient familiarity with digital data transmission to have addressed the claim about routers & sound quality.

I'm an outlier in this forum in that I'm both an objectivist and a home theater guy. I do listen to music on occasion in my theater, but primarily its movies. I don't stream and I don't use a router in the HT. I use a UHD Blu-ray player as my source for both music & movies. I recently upgraded my audio to a 6.2.6 configuration (six overhead speakers). My Trinnov can upmix stereo or 5.1 audio to include the overhead speakers (Dolby Surround upmixer). I am having a little fun these days listening to music with the upmixer active. Stereo is nice, but this is even better IMO. For example, I was never into Pink Floyd back in the day, but my 5.1 SACD of Dark Side of the Moon sounds awesome in the theater. The Dolby Atmos music disc Yello Point is amazing as well.

Anyway, no worries on disagreements about any of this. I usually expect that my views on things won't be accepted by most in this forum. That's fine. I toss in my two cents & if anyone benefits from it, great. If not, no biggie...

Cheers.

Can I ask if your background included Ralph Morrison recent edition of his book on grounding and interference?

 

[PeterA]

This does make some sense to me. For example, let's say someone had dynamic driver speakers with good off axis response and had added absorption panels to the side walls to mute the reflections. Then this person changed over to a horn speaker that is very directional. They would not likely need to panels on the side walls any longer and would probably like the sound better without them. In the same scenario if the person had added tweaks that added a sense of dynamics to the system, they may no longer need these with the already dynamic horns.

I changed the nature of the reflections in the room by removing absorption panels and re-orienting my speakers they have zero toe-in.

How does a tweak increase dynamics? I have tried tweaks that enhance leading edges and accentuate high frequencies for a more exciting detailed sound, but ultimately I thought it just sounded like distortion.

 

[henrich3]

Can I ask if your background included Ralph Morrison recent edition of his book on grounding and interference?

You may. It didn't.