What do people think about EMM Labs?

[edorr]

The SM3 is more current since audiophiles wanted a nicer looking unit. I was told by Andreas that the SM3 has upgraded parts inside as well. I'm using the SM3 in the studio now.

I tried a SM3 and sold it withing 24 hours. Nice preamp, but digital domain volume control in my Trinnov was a lot more transparent.....

 

[mojave]

JRiver will play your multi channel files, but to expand to 12 channels you need post processing and bass management for multiple subs. JRiver will not do this.

Sure it will. I know of one user currently using 24 channels of DSP for active crossovers with JRiver. The most channels JRiver will currently support is 32.

Nyal, you could try the exaSound e18 DAC. I believe ted_b had a review here of the two-channel E20. I use a Steinberg UR824 and some JRiver users are using the Lynx Aurora 8 or 16. I think I even read of someone using a DAC from EMM. With the Steinberg I use ASIO channels 11-18 to bypass the internal mixer.

If you want to go with convolution and JRiver you can use Audiolense or Acourate to generate filters. I just started using Audiolense. JRiver automatically switches the convolution config files based on sample rate. Audiolense allows for partial correction so you can correct and apply crossovers only below 200 Hz, for example. I spent some time measuring last night and trying to decide which way I want to go for bass management.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

JRiver will play your multi channel files, but to expand to 12 channels you need post processing and bass management for multiple subs. JRiver will not do this.

Hi Edorr, JRiver seems to have bass management capabilities: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Mixing. I have not downloaded it though or ever used it so I may be mistaken on it's usefulness?

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Sure it will. I know of one user currently using 24 channels of DSP for active crossovers with JRiver. The most channels JRiver will currently support is 32.

Niles, you could try the exaSound e18 DAC. I believe ted_b had a review here of the two-channel E20. I use a Steinberg UR824 and some JRiver users are using the Lynx Aurora 8 or 16. I think I even read of someone using a DAC from EMM. With the Steinberg I use ASIO channels 11-18 to bypass the internal mixer.

If you want to go with convolution and JRiver you can use Audiolense or Acourate to generate filters. I just started using Audiolense. JRiver automatically switches the convolution config files based on sample rate. Audiolense allows for partial correction so you can correct and apply crossovers only below 200 Hz, for example. I spent some time measuring last night and trying to decide which way I want to go for bass management.

The only 'room correction' I'd probably do would be in the low bass (<120Hz) and that would be done via hand dialed parametric EQ so convolution isn't a critical feature. I'm a firm believer in dealing with room and speaker / room interface issues above this frequency passively using acoustic treatment. That opinion may change this year because one of my 'big projects' will be a full on evaluation (acoustic measurements + critical listening) of all the major 'room correction' algorithms.

Does JRiver have a native capability for crossover and parametric EQ or does it rely on 3rd party plugins (e.g. VST format ones like FabFilter)?

I'm a little reticent about using a pro interface that contains a bunch of A/D converters I don't need. But maybe economies of scale mean that there is no real difference between a $4000ish pro interface with 8 channels of A/D and D/A and a $4000 8 channel D/A converter.

I did look briefly at the ExaSound but given I need > 8 channels I'm not sure how I would be able to use it, since the 8 channel input requires USB use and as far as I know it is not possible to 'sync' up two USB DACs?

 

[edorr]

Hi Edorr, JRiver seems to have bass management capabilities: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Mixing. I have not downloaded it though or ever used it so I may be mistaken on it's usefulness?

Nope, quite the contrary. I knew you can run advanced programs for DRC (such as acourate) in conjunction with JRiver on the PC, but it appears I was grossly underestimating the functionality available in JRiver itself. It seems to have far more feautures (either as part of of the standard program or though plug ins) than what I was aware of. Probably a bit of work to figure this out (which may be part of the fun), but you should be able to build the server that meets you needs with Jriver.

 

[mojave]

Does JRiver have a native capability for crossover and parametric EQ or does it rely on 3rd party plugins (e.g. VST format ones like FabFilter)?

It has native 64 bit crossover and DSP capability. I've owned a Behringer DCX2496 and miniDSP in the past in addition to using VST plugins like GlissEQ and nothing comes close to the power and flexibility of JRiver.

In the Room Correction DSP you can set the distance and level settings for all channels. You also use this for bass management and can specify the crossover frequency and high/low pass slopes for each channel.

For more advanced bass management and for channels greater than 8, you need to use Parametric Equalizer or Parametric Equalizer 2. These are identical and allow you to add PEQ filters, high/low pass filters, high/low shelf filters, delay, level adjustments, and reverse polarity. You use Mix Channels to copy input channels to multiple output channels for active crossovers. It even has a Linkwitz Transform for a sealed sub and a subwoofer limiter that hinges at about 50 Hz and allows you to set precise limiting for a DIY subwoofer system.

You can easily enter filters suggested by REW, but I've requested that JRiver be able to import the exported text file that REW can create. So far it hasn't been implemented.

With JRiver's zone capability and ZoneSwitch feature, you can setup different bass management for various playback situations: 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, stereo bass, mono bass to two subs, etc. Based on your criteria, JRiver will automatically switch to the correct zone. You can setup multiple zones just to compare various settings, too.

Here are some things I wrote in another forum that you can do in JRiver:

• Use different crossover frequencies for all channels
• Use different crossover slopes for the high pass on each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
• Use different crossover slopes for the low pass on the subwoofer(s) associated with each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
• Use different crossover frequencies for high and low pass filters (mains could have a high pass at 40 Hz, but subs could have a low pass at 60 Hz)
• Keep channels full range, but still send their bass to subwoofer(s)
• Copy or move bass from other channels to the mains
• Copy bass from the mains to other channels and the subwoofer for a 2.1 system (utilizes the surrounds as more bass sources)
• Apply distance settings to any channel
• Adjust the distance on the fly while use the RTA in REW to ensure the best integration at the crossover
• Apply delay to any channel
• Reroute sound to any channel (useful for duplicating the LFE channel on additional channels for more subwoofers)
• Delay the mains more than the subs (useful for horn mains with close sealed subs)
• Unlimited parametric EQ filters with high/low pass filters, high/low shelf filters, and peaking filters
• Use PEQ filters on all frequencies below the Schroeder frequency regardless of which channels are producing the output
• Apply PEQ filters to any or all channels
• EQ a DIY sub to a flat frequency response close mic before EQing to the room
• EQ a sub only to the room and compare to the previous
• Adjust internal gain to prevent filters from causing clipping
• Compare two sets of filters while listening (any ringing artifacts?)
• Easy to implement Linkwitz Transform (just enter current Fs and Q and desired Fs and Q)
• Use a reverse Linkwitz Transform to lower the bass curve if you have low Fs drivers and too much room gain
• Apply settings based on media type (for example, you could have different audio, video, and music video settings)
• Use two front subwoofers in stereo for music, but route all bass to them for video
• Add 10dB of gain to the LFE channel for those SACD's or DVD-Audio's that are mastered incorrectly
• Limiter and Clip Protection
• Sub harmonizer with the addition of Voxengo's LF Max Punch Sub harmonizer VST plugin
• 64-bit processing for all DSP
• Advanced volume protection with ability to set maximum system volume and reference level
• Ability to route all computer audio through DSP (youtube, internet, games, etc.)
• Visually see what is happening in any channel using VST plugins for spectograms and spectrum analyzers

 

[edorr]

It has native 64 bit crossover and DSP capability. I've owned a Behringer DCX2496 and miniDSP in the past in addition to using VST plugins like GlissEQ and nothing comes close to the power and flexibility of JRiver.

In the Room Correction DSP you can set the distance and level settings for all channels. You also use this for bass management and can specify the crossover frequency and high/low pass slopes for each channel.

For more advanced bass management and for channels greater than 8, you need to use Parametric Equalizer or Parametric Equalizer 2. These are identical and allow you to add PEQ filters, high/low pass filters, high/low shelf filters, delay, level adjustments, and reverse polarity. You use Mix Channels to copy input channels to multiple output channels for active crossovers. It even has a Linkwitz Transform for a sealed sub and a subwoofer limiter that hinges at about 50 Hz and allows you to set precise limiting for a DIY subwoofer system.

You can easily enter filters suggested by REW, but I've requested that JRiver be able to import the exported text file that REW can create. So far it hasn't been implemented.

With JRiver's zone capability and ZoneSwitch feature, you can setup different bass management for various playback situations: 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, stereo bass, mono bass to two subs, etc. Based on your criteria, JRiver will automatically switch to the correct zone. You can setup multiple zones just to compare various settings, too.

Here are some things I wrote in another forum that you can do in JRiver:

• Use different crossover frequencies for all channels
• Use different crossover slopes for the high pass on each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
• Use different crossover slopes for the low pass on the subwoofer(s) associated with each channel (12, 24, 36, 48 dB/octave)
• Use different crossover frequencies for high and low pass filters (mains could have a high pass at 40 Hz, but subs could have a low pass at 60 Hz)
• Keep channels full range, but still send their bass to subwoofer(s)
• Copy or move bass from other channels to the mains
• Copy bass from the mains to other channels and the subwoofer for a 2.1 system (utilizes the surrounds as more bass sources)
• Apply distance settings to any channel
• Adjust the distance on the fly while use the RTA in REW to ensure the best integration at the crossover
• Apply delay to any channel
• Reroute sound to any channel (useful for duplicating the LFE channel on additional channels for more subwoofers)
• Delay the mains more than the subs (useful for horn mains with close sealed subs)
• Unlimited parametric EQ filters with high/low pass filters, high/low shelf filters, and peaking filters
• Use PEQ filters on all frequencies below the Schroeder frequency regardless of which channels are producing the output
• Apply PEQ filters to any or all channels
• EQ a DIY sub to a flat frequency response close mic before EQing to the room
• EQ a sub only to the room and compare to the previous
• Adjust internal gain to prevent filters from causing clipping
• Compare two sets of filters while listening (any ringing artifacts?)
• Easy to implement Linkwitz Transform (just enter current Fs and Q and desired Fs and Q)
• Use a reverse Linkwitz Transform to lower the bass curve if you have low Fs drivers and too much room gain
• Apply settings based on media type (for example, you could have different audio, video, and music video settings)
• Use two front subwoofers in stereo for music, but route all bass to them for video
• Add 10dB of gain to the LFE channel for those SACD's or DVD-Audio's that are mastered incorrectly
• Limiter and Clip Protection
• Sub harmonizer with the addition of Voxengo's LF Max Punch Sub harmonizer VST plugin
• 64-bit processing for all DSP
• Advanced volume protection with ability to set maximum system volume and reference level
• Ability to route all computer audio through DSP (youtube, internet, games, etc.)
• Visually see what is happening in any channel using VST plugins for spectograms and spectrum analyzers

I presume the filters work on all channels though. In Trinnov you create filters for each channel individually based on inidividual channel measurements. Not sure how you would do this based on REW measurement.

 

[mojave]

I presume the filters work on all channels though. In Trinnov you create filters for each channel individually based on inidividual channel measurements. Not sure how you would do this based on REW measurement.

• Apply PEQ filters to any or all channels

With JRiver, you can use Order Channels from within the Parametric Equalizer DSP. This allows one to leave the REW settings to measuring the left channel, but to "move" the output to other channels. This makes it easy to get measurements for all channels in just a minute or so. I always apply EQ to all subwoofers together. You could EQ each speaker individuality if doing active crossovers, but then apply the same EQ to all subwoofers. Regardless of your philosophy of EQing, I believe it can be done in JRiver.

Edit: Nyal, I just realized I call you Niles in a previous post. I changed it.

 

[edorr]

With JRiver, you can use Order Channels from within the Parametric Equalizer DSP. This allows one to leave the REW settings to measuring the left channel, but to "move" the output to other channels. This makes it easy to get measurements for all channels in just a minute or so. I always apply EQ to all subwoofers together. You could EQ each speaker individuality if doing active crossovers, but then apply the same EQ to all subwoofers. Regardless of your philosophy of EQing, I believe it can be done in JRiver.

Edit: Nyal, I just realized I call you Niles in a previous post. I changed it.

Very powerful it seems, but not for the faint of heart. I am actually toying with the idea of getting a more powerful PC/Server and try taking Trinnov out of the chain for my 2 channel system and run Jriver + DRC on the PC instead. (I currently use a digital input switch before my trinnov, to switch between MCH and 2 channel - this could then be eliminated).

I can get something like Dirac live PC version or acourate for ease of use (and full phase / time alignement), or fiddle with REQ and build filters myself. Have you done fully automated DRC an the PC (acourate?), and how does it compate to DIY?

 

[Nyal Mellor]

JRiver seems very powerful. What kind of a PC spec would I need to run 12 channels of DSP etc? It would be great if I could just buy a HTPC off the shelf for the purposes of this proof of concept. Doing the research to build a PC fit for purpose doesn't really interest me at this stage. The software capabilities and the ability to use external high end DACs do.

 

[edorr]

JRiver seems very powerful. What kind of a PC spec would I need to run 12 channels of DSP etc? It would be great if I could just buy a HTPC off the shelf for the purposes of this proof of concept. Doing the research to build a PC fit for purpose doesn't really interest me at this stage. The software capabilities and the ability to use external high end DACs do.

The newly specified CAPS v3 zuma has lots of processing power. Not sure if it is enough for your application, but you can inquire. It can be bought build off the shelf.

 

[mojave]

Very powerful it seems, but not for the faint of heart.

In my opinion, it is easier than any other option I've ever tried.

I can get something like Dirac live PC version or acourate for ease of use (and full phase / time alignement), or fiddle with REQ and build filters myself. Have you done fully automated DRC an the PC (acourate?), and how does it compate to DIY?

I am currently using Audiolense and its bass integration is incredible. It sounds better to me than any manual filters. Once you learn how to use it, it only takes a couple minutes to take a measurement and generate filters for use in JRiver's convolution engine. Since I use the same audio device for measurements and playback, my signal chain is exactly the same so the phase and time alignment are basically perfect. I feel you need to understand more about acoustics to use the manual method.

 

[mojave]

JRiver seems very powerful. What kind of a PC spec would I need to run 12 channels of DSP etc? It would be great if I could just buy a HTPC off the shelf for the purposes of this proof of concept. Doing the research to build a PC fit for purpose doesn't really interest me at this stage. The software capabilities and the ability to use external high end DACs do.

I would recommend an i5 processor or better. You might check into the C.A.P.S. Zuma at Small Green Computer. It is more expensive than a DIY computer, but is supposed to be "audiophile" quality and is completely silent. A cheaper alternative is an ASRock HTPC from Newegg. I've bought 3 and really like them. They even come with a remote.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Does the CAPS have space for a Lynx AES and a video card? I need a chassis that has some expandability. I want to try out 'MADVR' too against my Lumagen. Thanks for any help!

 

[mojave]

If you aren't installing the USB card, then the CAPS should have room for the Lynx AESe, which is PCI express, using a riser card. I don't think the current micro ATX motherboards have support for PCI cards. It says in the CAPS blog that "All expansion cards require a PCIe riser card or flexible riser as the cards must be mounted horizontally away from the motherboard."

The Intel i7 used in the CAPS supports HDMI output and works with madVR for 1080p Blu-ray content since you only need chroma upscaling for Blu-ray. If you are upscaling DVD and want to use the latest Jinc upscaling with anti-ringing in madVR, then you need at least an Nvidia GTX 660 video card.

The latest JRiver build automatically downloads and installs the latest madVR builds. In other words, if a madVR new madVR build is released, then you need to get the newest JRiver build for it to be automatically downloaded. Since JRiver only releases a public build every week or so, then sometimes a madVR build is available for a few days before it is included in JRiver.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Say I wanted a case that could hold the USB card, graphics card and Lynx card, then do you know any cases that might work? Does the motherboard in the CAPS have enough slots for all these things? Also will the CAPS power supply be sufficient to power these additional cards?

 

[edorr]

Say I wanted a case that could hold the USB card, graphics card and Lynx card, then do you know any cases that might work? Does the motherboard in the CAPS have enough slots for all these things? Also will the CAPS power supply be sufficient to power these additional cards?

I think you probably need to look elsewhere. The CAPS are designs on the basis of delivering a compact and fanless box. You probably need more space for all the stuff you want in the server, and may end up needing fan.

 

[tailspn]

I'm not that familiar with the CAPS, but you might want to consider these:

http://www.streacom.com/products/fc10-fanless-chassis/

http://www.asus.com/Motherboard/P8Z77M_PRO/#overview

http://ark.intel.com/products/65524/Intel-Core-i7-3770S-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-3_90-GHz

If you require a PCI card:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboard/P8Z77V_PRO/

Both motherboards fit the case, and with the i7-3770-S, at 65W dissipation, the fanless FC10 case works. Either motherboard has both multiple USB 3.0 and 2.0 outlets, and a rather high capacity and speed graphics processor. The FC10 case will accommodate two PCI (e) cards, but the power supply is skinny at 150W. Lynx doesn't spec the power requirement for the AES card, you'd have to ask them. It's the configuration I'm building for a Pyramix Horus.