What improvements have we seen in high end audio in the last 25 years?

[prerich]

Well does 26 years ago count?

In 1988 I described a very powerful and extensible solution that was based on the processing power of computers, DSP and software driven systems in a document which I then analyzed and contrasted to what had occurred in the field up till 2009 in this article on my site.

BTW- If you want to know what the next decade or so will bring, I also wrote up a set of predictions in 2009. The first one, vector-encoded audio (aka 3D audio) has already come true.

You sir, are a prophet! Excellent.

 

[Brian Walsh]

Yet Tidals, Evolutions, Kharmas, Lumen Whites, Martens etc do not sound alike. Same goes for those that use SBs or SEAS. Clearly there is more to speaker design than simply choosing drivers.

Ain't that the truth! Several of the above I can't stand, while others stand out.

 

[caesar]

Seems like they said that back in the '80s too. In fact, every decade. Like the digital manufacturer who said to Harry Weisfeld at the 1985 CES: "What are you going to be doing in five years?" Guess who's out of business? I just don't get how people can say analog is dying when turntable manufacturers can't keep up with orders and an under $1000 Nomad table sounds better than any digital player under $1000 nowadays.

...

Myles, do you have any insight or sense of who's buying the Nomad? I would guess it's "too expensive" for the vinyl-loving non-audiophiles. Those folks, if they want something good, would probably go for a $400 table by Pro-Ject, Rega, or Clear Audio. Stepping away from the crazy pricing in this hobby, $400 buys you an ipad mini with a retina display in the "real world".

The more hardcore audiophile, however, will probably stretch for the $2K Scout or the more expensive Classic, at minimum.

 

[caesar]

There's no question that there's a lot of high end audio gear produced over the previous 25 hears that is still top quality. Whether the future is LP, digital or tape nobody really knows. What is known is that the peak of baby boomer retirements will be in play over the next 10 years. It is also well understood that retirement aged folks don't spend nearly as much money as they did before retirement. And when they die or move to their smaller retirement homes in Florida, they will need to liquidate a lot of very high quality gear.

Unfortunately, Audiogon will do very well over the next 10 years.

But a lot of the buyers may be from Europe or Asia...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

The more hardcore audiophile, however, will probably stretch for the $2K Scout or the more expensive Classic, at minimum.

Depends if the hardcore audiophile has the money to spend. Most here do, but many don't. Today's entry-level TT's are AMAZING for what they are able to deliver.

 

[caesar]

...
According to the most recent European GfK statistics I can find (to year end 2013), computer-side audio separates products (USB digital converters, networked streaming products, etc) outstrip sales of CD players and turntables combined. This did not include portable devices (which includes iPods, tablets, phones, and Sonos: Play style products); if these were included, the sales of computer audio products would eclipse the whole traditional audio market. We can dismiss this increasingly important sector of the market as just 'nerd stuff', but then we don't have the right to be surprised if the buyers of 'nerd stuff' dismiss our world in return.

...

Hi Alan,

Are these numbers publicly available? Can you please share more details regarding the sales numbers? Does anyone have sales numbers by company? Thanks

 

[caesar]

Depends if the hardcore audiophile has the money to spend. Most here do, but many don't. Today's entry-level TT's are AMAZING for what they are able to deliver.

Johnny,

What is your definition of "entry level"? I am assuming - and I could be very wrong - that a "audiophile" guy buying the Nomad or the Traveller will stay at with that product only as long as it takes him to save for a Scout or a Classic 1. After all, audiophilia is an obsession...

 

[caesar]

...
The very real danger here is that important developments in audio get sidelined through active disinterest by today's audiophile 'community' holding back what's changed in the last 25 years in order to preserve what was the status quo 35 years ago.

It's very difficult to overcome this. Manufacturers, magazines, and dealers are all reluctant to face up to this disinterest, because it has no 'benefit of the doubt' component. Try to promote these concepts professionally, and the best you can hope for is it's viewed as some kind of charming character flaw; more likely, you've just lost that person to your product. Often for good – I spent precisely three years working on both home theater and hi-fi titles toward the end of the 1990s (as part of a general step up the career ladder) - and I still get UK audiophiles telling me that everything I write about audio is tarnished because they consider me a turncoat.

...

For magizines: Can't this coverage be "outsourced" to a writer or 2 for coverage? As long as it is not seen as pushy activism, it may peek some interest

For manafacturers: Can't they release certain product lines targeted toward various niches? MBL has just released class D amps. They were very positively reviewed by John Atkinson. Of course, they still have their uber-expensive class AB amps. And Magico has the Q line targeted toward the "accuracy" market segment and the S line targeted toward the "less-accurate" market niche...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Johnny,

What is your definition of "entry level"? I am assuming - and I could be very wrong - that a "audiophile" guy buying the Nomad or the Traveller will stay at with that product only as long as it takes him to save for a Scout or a Classic 1. After all, audiophilia is an obsession...

I'm not sure what my definition of it is. I do think it's a personal thing and means different things to different people. In my case I have had my Nottingham for 3 years now and I am still very happy with it. I would love to own something higher up the chain, but not because I feel I need to. Some audiophiles will buy/sell and constantly upgrade..I am not one of them.

 

[MylesBAstor]

For magizines: Can't this coverage be "outsourced" to a writer or 2 for coverage? As long as it is not seen as pushy activism, it may peek some interest

For manafacturers: Can't they release certain product lines targeted toward various niches? MBL has just released class D amps. They were very positively reviewed by John Atkinson. Of course, they still have their uber-expensive class AB amps. And Magico has the Q line targeted toward the "accuracy" market segment and the S line targeted toward the "less-accurate" market niche...

That may be how you "see" the Magico speakers Caeser but I assure you that's not how Alon views his two lines. I also suggest being careful judging the sound of Magico speakers based upon show conditions!

 

[caesar]

I fear that I see one of my favorite brands, MartinLogan falling into this trap. They showed the Neolith at Munich, and rumors are the price is north of $50K.
Now this is for the descendant of the Monolith series (which I have and love), right down to the same panel (new spar spacing, but otherwise, the same thing), and now it has 2 woofers vs the 1. It's a passive design (market forces, not performance dictated that).
So for more than 5x the cost of the last Monolith, they deliver an updated 'flagship' just to be credible with a certain class of buyers.

JohnFo,

How many Neolith's do you think they will sell? 100? 150? 250? And how many Summits will they sell? 2,000-3,000? 5,000?

Sure some of the technology may trickle down from the Neolith to Summit XYZ, but why get distracted by marketing hype?

 

[caesar]

That may be how you "see" the Magico speakers Caeser but I assure you that's not how Alon views his two lines. I also suggest being careful judging the sound of Magico speakers based upon show conditions!

Myles, so how does he see them? I am not judging at all; just looking at this from a 3rd party perspective: Q line is the accurate line while S line was engineered to have more "bass boom boom boom" to go for the Wilson prospective buyer and make some money. Nothing wrong with making money, by the way. I hope he sells a lot of both lines.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, so how does he see them? I am not judging at all; just looking at this from a 3rd party perspective: Q line is the accurate line while S line was engineered to have more "bass boom boom boom" to go for the Wilson prospective buyer and make some money. Nothing wrong with making money, by the way. I hope he sells a lot of both lines.

Alon sees the Q speaker line as the best speakers Magico offers. Alon not only feels but will present the hard evidence that the Q series is a far more linear speaker than the S series. You do really need to hear Magicos under other than show conditions. Perhaps as Peter suggests, a trip to hear them at Godwins might be in store. (NPI)


A few people who heard the S5s recently at my place (see audioshark.com) were pleasantly surprised by just how good the cj/S5 combo sounded with analog and especially reel to reel tape. One Wilson owner commented that while he would keep his Alexias (at 2X the price also), he could definitely now understand what people really liked about the Magicos, especially their consistency and resolution from the top to the bottom of the frequency spectrum. Fair enough.

 

[JonFo]

JohnFo,

How many Neolith's do you think they will sell? 100? 150? 250? And how many Summits will they sell? 2,000-3,000? 5,000?

Sure some of the technology may trickle down from the Neolith to Summit XYZ, but why get distracted by marketing hype?

Depends on the price, but in the low hundreds at most. Which is a shame, as the fundamental tech is not that 'new', it's the Monolith with updated cabinet and woofers. The passive crossover I'm sure has tons of expensive parts and was a bear to design. But most active crossovers could beat it hands down.
So from my perspective not much to 'trickle down' from a tech angle. Maybe some cabinet design or construction elements.

One line of thought is that the Neolith is priced in a way to create a value perception in the CLX and Summit price ranges.

 

[caesar]

Alon sees the Q speaker line as the best speakers Magico offers. Alon not only feels but will present the hard evidence that the Q series is a far more linear speaker than the S series. You do really need to hear Magicos under other than show conditions. Perhaps as Peter suggests, a trip to hear them at Godwins might be in store. (NPI)


A few people who heard the S5s recently at my place (see audioshark.com) were pleasantly surprised by just how good the cj/S5 combo sounded with analog and especially reel to reel tape. One Wilson owner commented that while he would keep his Alexias (at 2X the price also), he could definitely now understand what people really liked about the Magicos, especially their consistency and resolution from the top to the bottom of the frequency spectrum. Fair enough.

Hey Myles,

I actually have heard the Q series in some state of the art rooms, and also in nice setups in people's homes. I definitely intellectually understand what Magico is trying to do. It's just not for me. With that said, I have no doubt I would enjoy your analog setup with the top of the line CJ driving the S5. To me, the S series is completely different sounding than their Q series. It's kind of like Proctor and Gamble selling 2 competing laundry detergents. Whether this was planned (deliberate business strategy) by Magico or just happened by accident (emergent business strategy using the technical lingo), it's smart business. I can't think of any other high end audio company that does the same thing.

 

[caesar]

Depends on the price, but in the low hundreds at most. Which is a shame, as the fundamental tech is not that 'new', it's the Monolith with updated cabinet and woofers. The passive crossover I'm sure has tons of expensive parts and was a bear to design. But most active crossovers could beat it hands down.
So from my perspective not much to 'trickle down' from a tech angle. Maybe some cabinet design or construction elements.

One line of thought is that the Neolith is priced in a way to create a value perception in the CLX and Summit price ranges.

Yes, the Neolith seems like an odd product. Even if it's head and shoulders above other stats, in the customer's mind's eye, it looks like a big $10K Summit. People aren't conditioned to pay more than $10-15K for an electrostat hybrid. I was thinking they would introduce a new Statement instead. Maybe in 2015?

I agree with your last statement - it's to re-position the brand as a whole.

 

[PeterA]

Hey Myles,
To me, the S series is completely different sounding than their Q series. It's kind of like Proctor and Gamble selling 2 competing laundry detergents. Whether this was planned (deliberate business strategy) by Magico or just happened by accident (emergent business strategy using the technical lingo), it's smart business. I can't think of any other high end audio company that does the same thing.

Caesar, I don't know if you are considering only speaker manufacturers, but if not, then consider Pass Labs. They do this with the X (Class A/B) and XA (Class A) lines. Distinct sound for each line, and they still offer the .5 and .8 series. Lots of choices at various price points. They also have FirstWatt and the XS at opposite ends. It's a very comprehensive offering. Kind of like Magico with the S and Q lines and the Ultimate.

 

[MadFloyd]

Alon sees the Q speaker line as the best speakers Magico offers. Alon not only feels but will present the hard evidence that the Q series is a far more linear speaker than the S series. You do really need to hear Magicos under other than show conditions. Perhaps as Peter suggests, a trip to hear them at Godwins might be in store. (NPI)


A few people who heard the S5s recently at my place (see audioshark.com) were pleasantly surprised by just how good the cj/S5 combo sounded with analog and especially reel to reel tape. One Wilson owner commented that while he would keep his Alexias (at 2X the price also), he could definitely now understand what people really liked about the Magicos, especially their consistency and resolution from the top to the bottom of the frequency spectrum. Fair enough.

It's actually audioshark.ORG. That said, I would love to read their comments but couldn't find any relevant thread in the Magico forum.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, I don't know if you are considering only speaker manufacturers, but if not, then consider Pass Labs. They do this with the X (Class A/B) and XA (Class A) lines. Distinct sound for each line, and they still offer the .5 and .8 series. Lots of choices at various price points. They also have FirstWatt and the XS at opposite ends. It's a very comprehensive offering. Kind of like Magico with the S and Q lines and the Ultimate.

Fair point. I was thinking of speaker companies only.

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes, the Neolith seems like an odd product. Even if it's head and shoulders above other stats, in the customer's mind's eye, it looks like a big $10K Summit. People aren't conditioned to pay more than $10-15K for an electrostat hybrid. I was thinking they would introduce a new Statement instead. Maybe in 2015?

I agree with your last statement - it's to re-position the brand as a whole.

One thing that is around now that was not 25 years ago is the Sound Lab Majestic. It is clearly the state of the art in ESLs. With recent changes in the crossover, they have become much easier to drive, and they are completely full range and can deliver quite a dynamic wallop.