What is "Sound Stage?"
- Thread starter Phelonious Ponk
- Start date
Dare I say you sound like Frank......
If Frank were willing to accept that what he hears is his perception, and that his tweaks are just triggers for his expectations, we'd be very much alike.
Tim
Of course it's what matters. That has never been the debate here, as far as I'm concerned. This has, for me, been about accepting that it is perception, and not a vertical image created by some stealth technology hidden within stereo recording and playback.
Tim
That's where we part because from my listening "everything" that is in the original venue when recorded is there. The only thing that stops us from hearing what takes place sonically is the level of distortion and noise in the system.
This will never be settled except to those who already know everything Tim. I'm still dumb enough to believe that microphone positioning affects what we hear on our recordings. If it didn't, recording engineers wouldn't be bothered about taking the time for setting up their microphones in order to capture the sound they are looking for. Microphones pick up both direct and reflected sounds with the direct sound being higher in level than the reflections. There are clues contained in the reflections that give us a sense of the physical boundaries and space.
If I hear someone stomping their foot to count the beat in to start a song, is it really just a coincidence that their foot sounds like it is stomping on my floor instead of an artificial floor floating in the plane of my drivers? Was there a microphone placed on the floor to capture the sound of the foot counting the beat or did the microphone used to record his instrument just happen to capture the sound of his foot and the speaker drivers placed the sound of his foot correctly because of their physical location in the cabinets?
My point is that we do hear height information in our recordings. We can all argue how it got there or why we hear it and some of you can argue that we don’t hear what we hear. At this point, I don’t care anymore. I don’t study how magicians do their magic tricks so I can never again enjoy watching magic and I spend all of my time watching their hands to see what they are up to. You can either spend your time enjoying listening to music through your system or you can sit around and pick 2 channel stereo apart and bemoan all of its shortcomings and remain an unhappy person.
At the end of a day, stereo creates an illusion. Better stereo systems create better illusions. You either have a believable illusion or you don’t. If you don’t hear height information regardless of why it’s there, you don’t have a very good illusion. And if believing in the illusion is equivalent to being ignorant, I guess I’m not the only one. I love the illusion. Mine is real damn good.
If I hear someone stomping their foot to count the beat in to start a song, is it really just a coincidence that their foot sounds like it is stomping on my floor instead of an artificial floor floating in the plane of my drivers? Was there a microphone placed on the floor to capture the sound of the foot counting the beat or did the microphone used to record his instrument just happen to capture the sound of his foot and the speaker drivers placed the sound of his foot correctly because of their physical location in the cabinets?
My point is that we do hear height information in our recordings. We can all argue how it got there or why we hear it and some of you can argue that we don’t hear what we hear. At this point, I don’t care anymore. I don’t study how magicians do their magic tricks so I can never again enjoy watching magic and I spend all of my time watching their hands to see what they are up to. You can either spend your time enjoying listening to music through your system or you can sit around and pick 2 channel stereo apart and bemoan all of its shortcomings and remain an unhappy person.
At the end of a day, stereo creates an illusion. Better stereo systems create better illusions. You either have a believable illusion or you don’t. If you don’t hear height information regardless of why it’s there, you don’t have a very good illusion. And if believing in the illusion is equivalent to being ignorant, I guess I’m not the only one. I love the illusion. Mine is real damn good.
In this thread we have given you what can be done to trigger the perception of not just height but depth and width as well. Processes that are an integral part of the recording. In this thread studies on human hearing have been provided that show how notch patterns will translate to perception of height. You don't need vertical channels to have the perception of height any more than you need a center channel to get a center image where there is no center channel. There is no magic, no stealth technology yet it IS created.
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It has been settled for pages, Mark. It only remains unresolved for those who refuse to learn anything.
If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that absolutely no one has made the argument that it does not.
Tim
It has been settled for pages, Mark. It only remains unresolved for those who refuse to learn anything.
If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that absolutely no one has made the argument that it does not.
Tim
I've been paying attention and at least two of you have argued that as far as vertical perception from a mic array. It was Soundproof's example of a particular opera recording that dispelled it.
So who is the scare crow supposed to be?
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That's a different position, Jack. Of course microphone positioning effects what we hear on recordings. But neither the microphone, nor the recording, nor the playback system has any information to differentiate height from any distance from the mic in any other direction. So you can create a great ambient space is in Roger's "Massey Hall" example. But it you are hearing any part of that ambience specifically as "height," that is your expectations and perceptions at work. Good work, but it is not discrete height information, and recognizing that fact does not mean anyone here believes that microphone positioning does not effect what we hear on recordings.
Mark - the Scarecrow is not you, he is your strawman agrument.
Tim
Since when did inanimate objects ever have the ability to differentiate anything? What PEOPLE can do is position mic arrays in order to simulate notch patterns that suggest height for the listener. It's perception that matters right? I believe we've agreed on that. Discreet is immaterial. Discreet is better, that's all.
When you can smugly bask in your extensive knowledge of audio, the art of recording, and how microphones work, it’s easy to see yourself as Einstein and think of anyone who doesn’t appreciate your brilliance as being brainless like the scarecrow. Tim has just proven that by hanging the scarecrow moniker on me. Good thing I’m not one of the easily offended.
I would agree that you can arrange mics in ways that will capture a sense of space, of distance. I've never argued against that. The point is that on the recording, that sense of space and distance has no direction other than what is determined by multiple channels. Any sense of height is your mind's assumptions, not info on the recording. It could actually be distance in any direction.
Tim
Bill,
(I will keep it very short and simple, to increase signal-to-noise ratio and try to avoid the unfriendly graphical proliferation of straw puppets ).
Sorry, but it seems we speak different languages. In real world if the source moves away from the mono microphone you will notice it from the recording – so position is involved, and I can say that there is some position information. It will sound different that if you just fade it down. It is in this sense I often read people referring to learning – you have to experience it once with the real, of being though to notice it. BTW, IMHO, directional and positional is not the same thing, although I often see it used indifferently in this thread. Is this the confusion?
Do you consider that stereo depth is non existent? That the different intensities do not also play a role in stereo?
Perfect analogy. You don't need a center channel to create a phantom center image. You do, however, need left and right channels. Do you have top and bottom channels in your system,Jack? unplug one of your speakers. See what happens to you image.
Tim
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