What is "Sound Stage?"

So the Accuphase has multiple tape out sockets, am I correct? Or do you plug and unplug? Isn't the Accuphase the unit that actually drives the power amps -- I'm still confused here! It sounds like having multiple tape loops being routed through the control preamp; it's all about how the switching is being done ...

If this is the case, have you ever tried the experiment of purely having CD source through the Accuphase only, driving the power amps: all tape circuitry completely disconnected, and switched off?

Frank

The Accuphase has the ability to connect 3 rtr's, and yes I have tried,the Accuphase is very transparent in it's own right,but the tape circuit is cleaner,plus the headroom of the studio electronics is a major plus in driving the amplifiers to perfection.
 
The Accuphase has the ability to connect 3 rtr's, and yes I have tried,the Accuphase is very transparent in it's own right,but the tape circuit is cleaner,plus the headroom of the studio electronics is a major plus in driving the amplifiers to perfection.
Sorry, Roger, still clarifying: the output of the studio electronics, all those slave preamps drives the power amps directly? Or do they get fed back into the Accuphase, or through some other switching mechanism, before hitting the amps?

Frank
 
Sorry, Roger, still clarifying: the output of the studio electronics, all those slave preamps drives the power amps directly? Or do they get fed back into the Accuphase, or through some other switching mechanism, before hitting the amps?

Frank

Source - accuphase preamp - tape loop (slave)

amplifier

The amplifier is driven by the Accuphase but the level of the slave effects the output level in total.
 
What is Sound Stage?

But why bother, if the imagined height suffices to audiophiles?

Illusional, or real to a certain extent; the fact remains that 'Height' is an integral part of a realistic soundstage.
Ceiling reflections (Moulin Rouge's high 'balancoire'), organ pipes,
floor reflections (flamenco dancers), ...

And two speakers (stereo) or Surround (multichannel); it is still there less or more, respectively.
And also efficiently, depending of the recording engineer, with his knowledge, miking art, and happy accidents.

What is Sound Stage? It is huge. It has dimensional abundance, substance, charisma (from the artists performing); it has soul, and it reflects in all directions.
 
Source - accuphase preamp - tape loop (slave)

amplifier

The amplifier is driven by the Accuphase but the level of the slave effects the output level in total.
Okay, that what I thought you had, but I wasn't quite sure. You see, the trouble I have with that is that you have 2 extra sets of interconnects, the connections associated with that, plus all the extra electronics of the slaves added to all the circuitry of the Accuphase. So in one sense the sound shouldn't be as good as the direct path through the Accuphase: running through the slaves all the input buffer, volume control and output stages of the control preamp are in operation, there's very little of it being bypassed, as far as I can see.

So if the sound is better then possibly some sort of conditioning, filtering of the preamp input is taking place within the slaves, as a possible reason. Perhaps there is some ultrasonic or RF noise being injected earlier in the chain, and the nature of the circuits in the slaves helps to remove that. Pure guesswork on my part -- this is the sort of situation I would love experimenting with, to try and get to the bottom of what's going on ...

Of course, if it's working well often the last thing you want to do is disturb things, in case the "synergy" is disturbed in some way: it's a tough call in the audio game at times!!

Cheers,
Frank
 
Okay, that what I thought you had, but I wasn't quite sure. You see, the trouble I have with that is that you have 2 extra sets of interconnects, the connections associated with that, plus all the extra electronics of the slaves added to all the circuitry of the Accuphase. So in one sense the sound shouldn't be as good as the direct path through the Accuphase: running through the slaves all the input buffer, volume control and output stages of the control preamp are in operation, there's very little of it being bypassed, as far as I can see.

So if the sound is better then possibly some sort of conditioning, filtering of the preamp input is taking place within the slaves, as a possible reason. Perhaps there is some ultrasonic or RF noise being injected earlier in the chain, and the nature of the circuits in the slaves helps to remove that. Pure guesswork on my part -- this is the sort of situation I would love experimenting with, to try and get to the bottom of what's going on ...

Of course, if it's working well often the last thing you want to do is disturb things, in case the "synergy" is disturbed in some way: it's a tough call in the audio game at times!!

Cheers,
Frank

I often have people comment....there must be a synergy here;)
 
...
As you will see, statements need sometimes to be conditioned by nearly always .

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/390awsi/index.html
Yep. I noticed that the author did not seem to understand what a stereo mic is and therefore made some incorrect assumptions about what it could capture.

In short, a stereo mic is nothing more than two microphone elements in one body, placed is a more-or-less Blumlein configuration. The performance is identical to two separate microphones arranged in the same pattern.

There are two outputs, one for each element, and some of them also contain electronics to produce a mathematical sum and difference signal (Mid/Side) for the two channels instead of the conventional L/R channels. Either format can be converted to the other in the mixing console. The upshot is that with one mic you record two channels (a left and right, or a mid and side) and then later on the console you can manipulate the width/depth of the stereo field where the mic is positioned. These are commonly used as drum overheads, or most anything that could benefit by recording a stereo field unique to it (as opposed to live, the whole orchestra).

Whether or not you use a stereo mic or two single mics, the results are identical. There is no additional information recorded (such as height). It's more of a convenience factor being able to position one body on one stand but still have the ability to be a stereo field.

--Bill
 
We will come back to your “super-tweaked listening system at home” shortly.
I can't wait.

So all master tapes you heard sounded “pretty consistent.” What does that mean? Since there are a bunch of different microphones with different pick up patterns and different ways to set up the microphone arrays and different recording gear including the microphones (not to mention different recording engineers with different ideas on how things should be recorded), how in the world would different master tapes made by different engineers in different recording studios and venues sound consistent? Are you saying the bass, midrange, highs, reverberation, etc. are really consistent? Or are you making a general statement that they consistently sound “good?”
I mean that they were both good and consistent in overall frequency balance from top to bottom, something that you try to achieve during a mix down. Sort of a 'standard' balance for consistency at playback. Of course different engineers choose different micing, perhaps different outboard equipment based on what a particular studio offers, and of course the mixing console in the studio makes a big difference in balancing and other characteristics, as does monitoring.

The point is that you strive for a general 'standard'.

What tapes sounded from really good to horrible at your house? It’s interesting that you came to the conclusion that all recorded music should sound the same in your house from recording to recording and therefore your “super-tweaked listening system at home” needed to be re-super-tweaked.
I don't believe that's what I said. If I play one recording and it's extremely bass heavy, and another has almost no bass, there's a good chance there is an acoustic problem that is seriously aggravating the issue in my local playback. With experience, you get to understand how much deviation in elements of the sound are 'normal' between recordings and which are out of context. Is the bass I'm hearing uniform over the three or so octaves? Is it compressed? Overly compressed? Over eq'd in the recording or sounding over-eq'd in my playback. Those kinds of things can be readily determined when the playback system is reasonably neutral. If you can't hear that level of detail something is wrong, and it's usually not the recording.

Now before you react, I'll say that there are some really bad recordings which break all the rules. You would be able to recognize those as well. Crap recordings never stopped most hits from being a top seller, though.

So the gear you had at home in your original “super-tweaked” system was able to tell the difference between a good recording and a bad recording and after you got rid of your old gear and bought new gear and ran a new grounding scheme, all of a sudden all of your recordings now had the same sound quality. Too bad you don’t list what your old gear was and what your new gear was (or is for that matter). I for one don’t buy the theory that all recordings should sound the same because they all have the same intrinsic sound quality.
Of course you don't. You haven't had the exposure necessary to understand what that means or to make those kinds of decisions. Most audiophiles don't.

Nope, it sure doesn’t sound familiar. Outside of Frank on this forum, I have never heard of anyone who tweaked their system and claimed to make bad recordings sound the same as their great recordings.
That was the point.

Bill-How about providing us with a list of your recording credits? I would be interested to read what recordings you are responsible for.
It's a long but not too interesting list. Undoubtedly no one you've ever heard of. The San Diego area has never been a hot spot for recording talent, or great studios, for that matter. There were many private label products, albums and singles by artists who tried hard but never made it, etc., usually budget stuff with very limited financing. Live shows mixed in real time, Live shows multi-track mixed later, audio for TV shows. Ultimately it was these conditions and limitations that led me to abandon pro-recording in the mid-80's (until late 90's). Or, I could have moved to Los Angeles, but that wasn't going to happen.

It doesn't matter, though, as you still learn the same lessons, skills and facts about the profession and audio in general.


Now, I would prefer, mep, that you stop nitpicking for nitpicking's sake. Your points and arguments are generally merit-less and I'm not at all sure you really 'get' my answers. Until you can generate enough personal interest to learn on your own by critical listening what some of this means instead of 'just enjoying the music' as you put it, just let it rest.

--Bill
 
Bill, your patience is commendable.

Tim
 
It appears that Atkinson in Stereophile agrees with Culshaw:

Although many audiophiles would insist that their systems do reproduce a sense of height, when I have experienced image height, it has nearly always turned out to be spurious, due to system flaws. The fundamental problem is, you see, that nearly all the microphone techniques recording engineers use to record music are incapable of capturing any height information.

From the Stereophile link above. I don't entirely agree with Bill's assessment that Atkinson doesn't know how a stereo microphone works. He's done lots of recordings, but Atkinson could have been a little clearer in pointing out the exception he is trying to make - and it's nonetheless really reaching for straws to postulate a single-point microphone that also registers floor- and ceiling-reflections, and therefore possibly manages to recreate vertical information. You would need a very long chain of of additional conditions, all the way to the loudspeaker/listening room interaction, for that to have an infinitesimal chance of coming true.

But it's of course enough to blow doors open here, given how mep uses said straws.
 
It appears that Atkinson in Stereophile agrees with Culshaw:

Although many audiophiles would insist that their systems do reproduce a sense of height, when I have experienced image height, it has nearly always turned out to be spurious, due to system flaws. The fundamental problem is, you see, that nearly all the microphone techniques recording engineers use to record music are incapable of capturing any height information.

From the Stereophile link above. I don't entirely agree with Bill's assessment that Atkinson doesn't know how a stereo microphone works. He's done lots of recordings, but Atkinson could have been a little clearer in pointing out the exception he is trying to make - and it's nonetheless really reaching for straws to postulate a single-point microphone that also registers floor- and ceiling-reflections, and therefore possibly manages to recreate vertical information. You would need a very long chain of of additional conditions, all the way to the loudspeaker/listening room interaction, for that to have an infinitesimal chance of coming true.

But it's of course enough to blow doors open here, given how mep uses said straws.

Typical audiophile journalism. He has nodded to reality. Good for him. But he didn't do it without leaving an opening, for his readers to see their illusions through. Some of these guys know what is and isn't real, but they're like Japanese businessmen leaving room for the opponent to save face. In this case, it's right here:

The fundamental problem is, you see, that nearly all the microphone techniques recording engineers use to record music are incapable of capturing any height information.

Had he said that the only microphone technique that can capture height information is multiple microphones, at multiple heights, into multiple channels, played back on multiple, vertially-arrayed speakers, that would have been honest.

But oh my, the letters....

Tim
 
One does become quite cynical from reading the audiophile press, and also expert at reading between the lines.

There would have been a mountain of letters.
 
Yep. I noticed that the author did not seem to understand what a stereo mic is and therefore made some incorrect assumptions about what it could capture.

In short, a stereo mic is nothing more than two microphone elements in one body, placed is a more-or-less Blumlein configuration. The performance is identical to two separate microphones arranged in the same pattern.

There are two outputs, one for each element, and some of them also contain electronics to produce a mathematical sum and difference signal (Mid/Side) for the two channels instead of the conventional L/R channels. Either format can be converted to the other in the mixing console. The upshot is that with one mic you record two channels (a left and right, or a mid and side) and then later on the console you can manipulate the width/depth of the stereo field where the mic is positioned. These are commonly used as drum overheads, or most anything that could benefit by recording a stereo field unique to it (as opposed to live, the whole orchestra).

Whether or not you use a stereo mic or two single mics, the results are identical. There is no additional information recorded (such as height). It's more of a convenience factor being able to position one body on one stand but still have the ability to be a stereo field.

--Bill

Bill,
Thanks. I will have to think about it, as it is not a simple subject. I was particularly interested in this reference, because it referred to a letter of Professor Peter Fellgett of the University of Reading, an honored acoustics expert with respected credentials.
 
What did we learn here? A bit more than the last half of this thread was about height information in recordings. There were 16 guys (it's always guys...are there any women in this hobby?) involved enough in that height discussion to stick with it and post regularly. They break down like this:

There is height information on recordings and no amount of discussion will change my mind: 7

There is no height information on recordings and no amount of discussion will change my mind: 6

Guys who may have actually learned something here: 3

I'm definitely in group #2. Came to the party with my mind made up. A lot of people misinterpreted me or misrepresented my position to say I didn't believe that a vertical sound, reaching beyond the boundaries of the speaker cabinets was possible, which is never what I was saying. That was annoying and I got tired of answering it, but regarding the issue of a vertical image (and I've spelled it out enough, if you don't know what I mean, please search my posts to this thread), nobody said anything to to change my mind. In fact, nobody who seemed to know how records are made said anything to contradict me, so yes, I came here with my mind made up on that one. No, Mep, I don't know everything, but I do know this.

But in spite of not being able to place myself among the open-minded 3, I did learn something here: I learned that I'm not nearly as alone as I thought I was. I learned that if it gets to an issue that is clear enough, if it gets to a basic misunderstanding of what the core technology can and cannot do, there are nearly as many audiophiles - here, anyway - who will hang for 80 pages insisting on reality as there are who will insist, against all logic and evidence to the contrary, that what they hear is not their brain fullfilling their expectations.

I didn't have faith in that before. I am encouraged. :)

Tim
 
I'll putaside for the moment the irony of citing John Atkinson and JG Holt as authorities for their postiton that audio recordings contain no "height" information, He never says many of the things put forth in this thread. He also concedes height is attainable. He also repaeats the same tortured arguments.

By John Atkinson • Posted: Jun 9, 2007 • Published: Mar 9, 1990
Stuck out here in the desert depths of the Southwest, we look forward to visits from out-of-towners. So when David Wilson, one-time audio reviewer but now full-time high-end manufacturer, called to say he was going to be in Santa Fe, there was a flurry of activity. David had agreed to an interview, so I started going through back issues of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile for background. Vol.6 No.2 of Stereophile from 1983, with its front-cover photograph of David and Sheryl Lee Wilson with their WAMM speaker system, seemed a good place to start—except that nothing inside the magazine corresponded to the cover picture. It was the next issue that had featured Larry Archibald's write-up on the WAMM, and once I opened its pages, I got trapped into reading the entire issue.
J. Gordon Holt's "As We See It" involved an intriguing LaserVision disc. An orchestral recording, it had been balanced in a manner that, had it been a sound-only disc, would have destined it for the circular filing bin. As each instrument took a solo, the sound engineer had boosted its level so that it dominated the mix. However, the video disc revealed the aural spotlighting to coincide with close-up shots of the respective performers, and the venerable JGH (in whose ears we trust) felt that, owing to the dominance of sight over the other senses, such a distortion of the soundstage was subjectively acceptable. It was only in the absence of the visual sense, he argued, that listeners become critical of flaws in soundstage reproduction, the solidity of the sonic-only experience being destroyed by a heavy hand at the mixing console.

Which brings me to a number of letters this month concerning the reproduction of the recorded soundstage. A Mr. L. A. Whitcher accuses me of muddled terminology when I recently referred to a "possibly three-dimensional space" being created between and behind the loudspeakers. "If it's not three- dimensional, it's mid-fi, no matter how much you paid for it," guffaws Mr. Whitcher, obviously thinking that I hardly know which way is up.

What we have here is dimensional confusion. Many people think that the three dimensions that define a reproduced soundstage are "Left," "Right," and "Back," in which case any system that threw image depth would be "three-dimensional." This is incorrect, however. The three classical dimensions, each defining motion at a 90° angle to the other two, are "Length" (left–right), "Width" or "Depth" (front–back), and "Height" (up–down). A system that reproduced a stereo image with impressive depth would therefore be reproducing a two-dimensional stage. If its image had no depth, then it would be one-dimensional. (A one-dimensional object is a line, having length but no depth/width or height.) This is the context in which I had referred to a "possibly three-dimensional" soundstage last November, not one which could possibly have depth—which I understand to be Mr. Whitcher's interpretation—but one which possibly gave a faithful sense of image height. Although many audiophiles would insist that their systems do reproduce a sense of height, when I have experienced image height, it has nearly always turned out to be spurious, due to system flaws. The fundamental problem is, you see, that nearly all the microphone techniques recording engineers use to record music are incapable of capturing any height information.

The argument is that height perception is the result of system flaws because current microphonbe techniqueshniques

A common philosophical trap fallen into by audiophiles is to assume that any LP or CD inherently contains within it the information necessary to recreate the live illusion. This just isn't correct. Even the finest system will not create a soundstage with an accurate sense of height unless care was taken to ensure that the appropriate height information was captured at the recording session. I am not saying that it is impossible for a stereo system to throw a sense of height—the new Chesky Test CD that I mention in my loudspeaker reviews this month contains tracks where the signal can reproduce as being above the plane of the loudspeakers—but that conventional stereo microphone techniques do not capture the aural clues that allow the ultimate listener to perceive height.

There is one possible exception to this blanket dismissal: the tiny fraction of recordings where the engineer has used a single-point stereo technique. As implied in the addendum to Professor Peter Fellgett's letter, if early reflections of the direct sounds of instruments are captured by a stereo mike technique without any lateral spatial distortion—ie, all the components of the reverberant field come from the correct lateral positions between the loudspeakers—this "ambience-labeling" will contribute to a feeling of solidity and depth to the reproduced soundstage. And as the reflections of the direct sounds from the floor and ceiling of the recording venue will also come from their correct lateral positions, it can and has been argued that this will lead to an accurate reproduction of image height.

This general philosophical confusion also applies to the width of the soundstage, a topic examined in three letters from Singapore reader Yip Mang Meng. Some writers have naÏvely expounded that if the live orchestral image extends from wall to wall, then so should that experienced from a hi-fi system. As with image height, however, the ability to throw a soundstage that extends beyond the speaker positions is not primarily a system characteristic but one that is fundamentally dependent on the information encoded in the recording. It is misleading, therefore, to imply that a perfect system will inherently reproduce images beyond the speaker edges, as nearly all stereo microphone techniques again completely fail to encode the information necessary to reproduce such a soundstage.

A single microphone may pick up sounds from many directions, but when a single-channel recording of its output is played back, all the soundsources will appear to come from the speaker position. Soundsources that were further away from the mike will have a larger proportion of reverberation captured, thus their images will appear to be further away—it has been known since the dawn of recording that monaural recordings can still reproduce the depth dimension. Lateral imaging, by definition, is a function of the relationships between the signals in two or more reproduction channels, and conventional multi- and widely-spaced–mike techniques produce images that must by definition fall at or between the speaker positions.

Consider a spaced-mike technique, that used for Mercury "Living Presence" and Telarc recordings. All sources to the sides of the mike positions will be captured with a somewhat different ratio of amplitudes between the two recording channels, but with a constant time delay. When that recording is played back over two loudspeakers, those side images can't help but be localized in the speaker positions owing to that time delay. The soundstage thus remains bounded by the speakers.

However, while I was thinking about the abilities of the various mike techniques to reproduce height information, it struck me that perhaps the classic Blumlein pair of figure-8 microphones, vertically coincident and angled at 90°, should capture the information necessary to reproduce image positions beyond the speakers. Soundsources in the angle subtended by the mikes will produce in-phase signals in the two microphone outputs that differ in amplitude: this mechanism defines all the traditional image positions between the loudspeakers. But consider a source to the left-hand side of the microphone array outside this angle. It produces identical amplitudes in the two mike outputs, but whereas that in the left-pointing mike will have positive polarity, that in the right mike will have the opposite polarity. When the two-channel recording is played back over loudspeakers, therefore, such a soundsource will produce out-of-phase information in the speakers with the phase-lead to the left loudspeaker. This is exactly the interchannel information relationship required to produce an image beyond the left-hand loudspeaker position.

To test this hypothesis, when we recorded the music for the second Stereophile album—see "The Final Word," p.226—I also used a Blumlein pair of figure-8 mikes to record Larry Archibald mapping out the soundstage from way beyond the mike position on the left side of the church all the way to the right-hand wall of the church. (The "traditional" soundstage covered by the mikes occupied the center third of the church.) When the tape was played back over a pair of Thiel CS5 loudspeakers—these superb speakers create one of the best-defined soundstages I have heard—Larry's voice and handclaps could be heard way beyond the speaker positions, just as predicted.

Now as far as I know, no one records instruments and voices outside the "traditional" pick-up area of a Blumlein pair. Their images should therefore stay within the bounds of the speaker positions. But the ambience and reverberation recorded in such a manner should extend beyond the speakers, adding to the sense of realism and image.
Where do I begin?

Let's see . He has expereinced height perception. But it was due to sytem to flaws. No descritption of the height information or what system flaws caused it.
Height information can possibly be captured using certain tehcniques. This seems totally contradictory of the his earleir position.
He realises the absurduity of arguing that the microphone is one dimensional as previously argued in this thread. It must be at be at least two dimensional. There exist three dimesions. The second dimesion would unarguably be height. Of course he can't admit that because that woiuld defeat the agruement. I don't know anyone that would argue that before depth there was a rectangular image localised to the speaker. The last dimension achieved in stereo reproduction was depth. This cotntributes to the notion that the speakers disappearded. That is to say instead of having information only in the x-y plane you have information in the x-y-z plane making it three dimensinal. Depth was the last dimension to emerge.

I suppose I should take into consideration that this article was written in 1990. Imaging has improved substantially since then.
 
Although the motto of this thread "Enquiring minds want to know..." is now lost in the mind of the thread starter who seems to have all the certitudes and is now doing statistics, I want to deserve my place in class 3 Guys who may have actually learned something here (and elsewhere, I add...).

I found references to a recent book Acoustics and Hearing [Paperback], Peter Damask, printed by Springer, a well known scientific publisher that warrants some credibility to the book. You can read the introduction at Amazon.com - it seems fascinating.

http://www.amazon.com/Acoustics-Hearing-Peter-Damaske/dp/3540782273

However I was not expecting to see it acknowledged in a review by PeterAczel of the Linkwitz Lab Orion speakers, so cherished by some of us, in unbelievable terms. Please read it at

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=44&blogId=1

My conclusion at this time - we still have a lot to learn. I am ordering the book.
 
Now as far as I know, no one records instruments and voices outside the "traditional" pick-up area of a Blumlein pair. Their images should therefore stay within the bounds of the speaker positions. But the ambience and reverberation recorded in such a manner should extend beyond the speakers, adding to the sense of realism and image
.

There it is in black and white. Depending on the ability of the system to convey ambience,reverb,ect,you just might not be able to hear all that is captured in recorded music. Have I learned anything? Yes people will always dispute the unknowable. I allready knew the answer,I just learned there are two sides to everything.

I'm done
 
Although the motto of this thread "Enquiring minds want to know..." is now lost in the mind of the thread starter who seems to have all the certitudes and is now doing statistics, I want to deserve my place in class 3 Guys who may have actually learned something here (and elsewhere, I add...).

I found references to a recent book Acoustics and Hearing [Paperback], Peter Damask, printed by Springer, a well known scientific publisher that warrants some credibility to the book. You can read the introduction at Amazon.com - it seems fascinating.

http://www.amazon.com/Acoustics-Hearing-Peter-Damaske/dp/3540782273

However I was not expecting to see it acknowledged in a review by PeterAczel of the Linkwitz Lab Orion speakers, so cherished by some of us, in unbelievable terms. Please read it at

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=44&blogId=1

My conclusion at this time - we still have a lot to learn. I am ordering the book.

Not sure I get your point, micro. I see the reference. It is unrelated. But yes, you deserve your place among those who understand there is much to learn. So do I, in all my certitude. All I've been certain of, ever, in this thread, is that there is no height information in stereo recordings. That such a statement is even arguable strikes me as odd.

Yes, soundstage has height. No, stereo does not have vertical imaging. Yes, I'm certain. :)

Tim
 

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