What objectivists and subjectivists can learn from each other

[jkeny]

Yes, Steve, Happy weekend to everybody - enjoy some good music & maybe a beer or two to cool down

 

[Ethan Winer]

I can show you jitter measurements but I'm afraid it will be useless to a closed mind as you will then argue that it's not audible, so why should I bother?

Yes, if you want to prove that jitter is a real problem that deserves being addressed, you have to show not only that it exists (duh), but that it's also audible. Here's a clue: Whether typical jitter is 120 dB down, 110 dB down, or only 100 dB down, either way it's well below the noise floor of a CD! When was the last time you ever heard the noise floor of a CD while music was playing at any playback level? I've been producing music professionally since the 1970s - I've heard tape hiss many times, and all manner of noises from LP records, but never noise from 16-bit PCM.

I do not have a closed mind. As I've explained literally hundreds of times in audio forums over the years, I'll be glad to change my opinion in a heartbeat as soon as someone shows some actual evidence. But they never do. They just quote the opinion of others (such as Bob Katz) and offer that as if it were some sort of hard proof.

Here's your chance. Upload some files using any combination of program material and artifacts you believe makes your point, or forever hold your peace.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan agreed on that thread to the fact that he hears jitter (when the volume is turned up)

Not in a million years. Link please, or concede you read that wrong.

The only thing I learned from that thread about jitter, which I gladly acknowledged, is that jitter from a receiver's HDMI output can be much higher than from normal sound cards and converters and S/PDIF connections. I was glad for the education! I even included that in my book.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

You will have seen Amirm response to Ethan's similarly repeated requests for such a sample file - it is an impossible request to satisfy.

I was able to do that easily for my Audio Myths video and example files. Why can't you create some files that make your point? If not real jitter, show us any artifacts that are audible or audibly damaging when mixed in at levels similar to jitter. If you can't do that, perhaps you should reconsider your beliefs.

This all started because Ethan said that all this had been sorted out 50+ years before

It was sorted out 50 years ago. If there really was something more than the known standard four parameters that affect audio, it would have shown as a residual in a THD analyzer, and/or the display of an RTA. Today we can null music digitally in software, not just test tones, and guess what? Audio files such as Wave versus FLAC containing music can be shown to null to total silence - zero volts as you put it - yet again proving there is no magic. That you continue to disagree that a total null is possible shows you have not watched or understood that section of my video or played the example files, or even done such tests yourself.

--Ethan

 

[jkeny]

Here's what you said

I'm pretty sure I never said "jitter is never audible in any circumstance," but if I did I meant any normal circumstance.

have a good weekend, drink a few beers, chill

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, perhaps it's time to just close the thread. Everybody have a good weekend and enjoy the music.