Why does burning in work

[RogerD]

This is all fine but, the issue remains: Is any of it audible and can audibility be demonstrated under controlled conditions?

Burn in or settling can be heard and typically the longer the better. In high resolution systems it is noticeable as the soundstage opens and closes as it cycles. Also the music decompresses...most noticeable in excellent cables and grounding systems. In most high end systems this should be not open to question.

 

[NorthStar]

Invite twenty blind audiophiles in the same music audio testing listening room for twenty weeks and let them write down their findings on burn-in audio/video components.

Make sure you accommodate them well with good food and clean water and good times. Pay them well for their analyses and researches and conductive experiments.

That'll be the day.

 

[Empirical Audio]

This is all fine but, the issue remains: Is any of it audible and can audibility be demonstrated under controlled conditions?

It is audible to me, but I think the right measurements would show differences. A direct jitter measurement for instance should in theory be higher before break-in.

Next build, I'll give this a try. If something is obvious, I will post it.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[microstrip]

This is all fine but, the issue remains: Is any of it audible and can audibility be demonstrated under controlled conditions?

Kal,

Have you ever participated in a test that demonstrated audibility of any "small difference" under "controlled conditions"? By small difference I refer to anything that is typically under usually reported thresholds - .1dB FR or .1% distortion.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

How would you proceed for both?

• You are invited to test a brand new audio component*, fresh from the factory.
• It is for five weeks in a château of Provence (France) with all expenses paid, room & board.
• Your wife is also invited along with twenty more professional audiophiles with golden ears (trained listeners), and with their wives too.
• In that chateau everything is included; first class meals, best wines, infinite swimming pool, spa, sauna, manicure, forty bathrooms, many activities, plenty of gardens, horses, room service 24/24.
• Among the guests are the best in the audio business to conduct such tests.
• Also the very top best measuring tools are supplied.

* It could be a preamplifier, an amplifier, a loudspeaker, a DAC, ...all of them and more.

Who cares? I'm in.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Have you ever participated in a test that demonstrated audibility of any "small difference" under "controlled conditions"? By small difference I refer to anything that is typically under usually reported thresholds - .1dB FR or .1% distortion.

Nope.

IME, there is no test on Earth, even if Einstein was alive and designed the test, that would satisfy a person with an ingrained belief system and an ego. People have to be beat over the head with many experiences that firmly contradict their beliefs and come to a point where it's more painful to hold onto the beliefs than to change them for them to even consider their beliefs were wrong.

I have an ingrained belief system, an ego and a susceptibility to objective demonstrations and tests. But, also, I have to hear it for myself.

If I simply send you a speaker cable made using the litz wire you might change your mind though. It's not subtle AT ALL.

Even if you sent two, one well burned in and one virgin, what would my independent report say?
1. It might say that I could not distinguish them and you would find fault with my hearing and or my system. However, I would not care since the difference is inaudible to me.
2. It might say that I could distinguish them but I might not care because the difference might be trivial (to me) or I might distrust the samples without an independent verification or I might be convinced. How would my conviction, as a single non-statistical data point, have any effect on others with my initial bias?

There is little point in this debate, imho. I can be convinced only by my personal experience (whether right or wrong) or by independent, statistical, objective tests.

 

[NorthStar]

Who cares? I'm in.

You just replied with the perfect answer.
Now all you have to do is ask Stereophile to provide such panoramic and comfortable settings in the country side of some of the best wines and cuisine, and for five weeks do all the testing, measuring and listening, among all the other great life's activities and that infinity swimming pool.

I am 100% convinced that the final results would be unbiased, foolproof honest and without any reservation whatsoever. ...The truth and only the truth...if the professional audiophiles still care after these lovely hard working weeks in the château's enchanted magical surroundings.

Burn-in, does it matter or not? In OLED TVs it sure does. In music reproduction it too, with most high-end audio products, including the cables. And you don't even have to measure, just believe me, and them, but mostly you, however right or wrong.

* Yes me too I would be in.

 

[NorthStar]

Nope.

I have an ingrained belief system, an ego and a susceptibility to objective demonstrations and tests. But, also, I have to hear it for myself.

Even if you sent two, one well burned in and one virgin, what would my independent report say?
1. It might say that I could not distinguish them and you would find fault with my hearing and or my system. However, I would not care since the difference is inaudible to me.
2. It might say that I could distinguish them but I might not care because the difference might be trivial (to me) or I might distrust the samples without an independent verification or I might be convinced. How would my conviction, as a single non-statistical data point, have any effect on others with my initial bias?

There is little point in this debate, imho. I can be convinced only by my personal experience (whether right or wrong) or by independent, statistical, objective tests.

Number one, you would be instantly eliminated to participate in such tests; your ears are simply too limited in the frequency range of the full audio spectrum.. As a witness behind a masked window, like the ones they use to identify people who committed crimes and protect the victims, yes.

Number two, it don't matter anymore after number one.

 

[microstrip]

Nope.

(...)

There is little point in this debate, imho. I can be convinced only by my personal experience (whether right or wrong) or by independent, statistical, objective tests.

As you say, there is little point in debating the subjective part. The main objective was debating the physical, measurable differences due to burn-in. We reported on them.

There is an effect that has some similarity with physical burn-in of components and is used by JBL in their top speakers - polarizing film capacitors with DC through a high value resistor. Harman is known for using statistical, objective listening tests in their technical decisions, but I could never find any scientific report on the audibility of this technique.

It is bizarre that this tweak is used by a company known for their objective options, and no one has ever carried proper listening tests on its audibility.

 

[DaveC]

There is little point in this debate, imho.

At least we agree on something!

 

[NorthStar]

Even using state-of-the-art measuring tools, interpreting the results with micro point accuracy, using state-of-the-art trained music listeners, the best programs to design the best audio components, loudspeakers, the best parts from the world, nothing is more conclusive than what we prefer in comparing all there is we had experience with. And lots of it is beyond our reach.

How do we accurately determine the audio listening effects of component's burn-in?
In combination of all the tools we have @ our disposition plus from the scientific audio writings of books yet to be written. We can buy books today as excellent guides on burn-in, or read the excellent free articles online. I pay thousands a year to be educated from the Internet library; I just need to read the right ones, talk with the right people, hang out @ the right places, ask the right questions, eat the right food in the right restaurants...@ home. I don't want to get a burn-in stomach. My body needs calibration, lubrication, the right ointment, premium batteries, spic-and-span ears, good intuition and clean judgement, determination in balancing properly right from wrong.

High end audio salon shows from all over the world in various hotel rooms, private world rooms, constantly switching and measuring and comparing and listening is an excruciating audiophile's lifestyle. You get burn-in eventually.

Regular audio aficionados I don't think they care about burn-in audio components.
...Even after time when they do sound better and more open.

We need more fast burn-in machines to accelerate the process; so that we can benefit quicker from our short sojourn on Earth. Time is like water, it's a precious life's accomodation, it's an essential human priority. Better take the time than getting burn-out.

It is right to be philosophical about it, it is right to share various experiences in cables burn-in, it is right to believe, to have faith, it is right to live in peace and free under our feet and above our head, it is right to not impede on the air others breathe, it is right to not pollute the water others are drinking, it is right to give life to the ones who deserve it the most, it is right to share the gift that was given to us by our fathers and mothers, life, it is right to make peace with the enemies, it is right to work towards equal rights and justice for all.

I believe in burn-in audio components from the higher end, generally.
Some parts sound their best with time, some cars run their best with time, some people live their best with time, some meals taste their best with the right amount of cooking spices and time.

 

[BlueFox]

I just experienced this Wednesday night with my new Typhon QR. At first, it sounded a bit harsh, but after a few hours it smoothed out, and now really improves the sonics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just experienced this Wednesday night with my new Typhon QR. At first, it sounded a bit harsh, but after a few hours it smoothed out, and now really improves the sonics.

Is there active circuitry in that?

How do you know you didn’t simply become accustomed to the sound?

 

[Gregadd]

The question is whether "burn In " and becoming "accustomed to the sound " are not mutually exclusive effects? Certainly whatever you are listening to has become your "standard." Additionally, you have to experience a certain amount of listening material before forming an opinion. "Burn in" is a universal concept not unique to audio. Yes then you are replacing your standard. But there is also anew standard to which you are becoming acclimated.

 

[microstrip]

Even using state-of-the-art measuring tools, interpreting the results with micro point accuracy, using state-of-the-art trained music listeners, the best programs to design the best audio components, loudspeakers, the best parts from the world, nothing is more conclusive than what we prefer in comparing all there is we had experience with. And lots of it is beyond our reach.

How do we accurately determine the audio listening effects of component's burn-in?
In combination of all the tools we have @ our disposition plus from the scientific audio writings of books yet to be written. We can buy books today as excellent guides on burn-in, or read the excellent free articles online. I pay thousands a year to be educated from the Internet library; I just need to read the right ones, talk with the right people, hang out @ the right places, ask the right questions, eat the right food in the right restaurants...@ home. I don't want to get a burn-in stomach. My body needs calibration, lubrication, the right ointment, premium batteries, spic-and-span ears, good intuition and clean judgement, determination in balancing properly right from wrong.

High end audio salon shows from all over the world in various hotel rooms, private world rooms, constantly switching and measuring and comparing and listening is an excruciating audiophile's lifestyle. You get burn-in eventually.

Regular audio aficionados I don't think they care about burn-in audio components.
...Even after time when they do sound better and more open.

We need more fast burn-in machines to accelerate the process; so that we can benefit quicker from our short sojourn on Earth. Time is like water, it's a precious life's accomodation, it's an essential human priority. Better take the time than getting burn-out.

It is right to be philosophical about it, it is right to share various experiences in cables burn-in, it is right to believe, to have faith, it is right to live in peace and free under our feet and above our head, it is right to not impede on the air others breathe, it is right to not pollute the water others are drinking, it is right to give life to the ones who deserve it the most, it is right to share the gift that was given to us by our fathers and mothers, life, it is right to make peace with the enemies, it is right to work towards equal rights and justice for all.

I believe in burn-in audio components from the higher end, generally.
Some parts sound their best with time, some cars run their best with time, some people live their best with time, some meals taste their best with the right amount of cooking spices and time.

Sorry Bob, but IMHO you do not need any of these ... You only need a method that is well studied and rigorous, and lots of time and people to carry the listening tests. But as most people will tell you, time is our most precious belonging and is extremely expensive.

Everyone becomes nervous when I refer to it, but the more critical part in these tests is assembling a system that checks for known accepted positives. This if we ever manage to have an accepted list of positives in the small difference group ...

 

[NorthStar]

All good Francisco, I'm wide open to all avenues and to all experiments by all experienced people on the benefits of burn-in audio/video components.

I don't know the exact degree of correlation between the true effects of burn-in over time and human psychological interpretation.

I can only relate from personal experience.
Example: I listened to some music I'm familiar with @ different times. Sometime that same music played from the same source from the same format has a higher emotional impact, a more precise connection, more detailed and enveloping...soundstage and heft and depth wise. Other times it is less so.

I think many elements are @ play; the listener disposition @ different times of the day, the seasons, the room temperature, the weather outside the windows,the body chemistry, the overall air, atmosphere, the physionomy, physiology, ...microscopic dust particles floating and falling down.

It also happens with the same movies played in the same player from the same format. Sometimes the scenes appear clearer, more resolute, impactful. ...As if the player is @ its best behavior and ambient room temperature's comfort zone. But it's probably me more than the player or the disc.

It's true. Many loudspeakers and screen displays and tube amplifiers and audio/video sources perform best with time, when warmed up, when well burn-in. Some day we'll have more advanced tools able to measure the micro differences between a cold state and a warm one (burn-in), and establish the human correlation in interpreting the results with more defined conviction.

I'm wide open, unbiased, listening and observing over time when acquiring a new component in my system.
I know that some psychology is also @ play, and that too is science deserving. But there are real sound differences too; we can hear them in real time in our listening room's space. We just need to concentrate in relaxing.

 

[BlueFox]

Is there active circuitry in that?

How do you know you didn’t simply become accustomed to the sound?

Since the incoming AC passes through the QR onto its way into the Triton, there are some type of filters/circuitry it uses. Whether that would be considered active circuitry or not is a matter of definition.

I don't think I became accustomed to the harsh sound. That wouldn't make any sense. However, I am now accustomed to the new sound, and it isn't harsh.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't think I became accustomed to the harsh sound.

Adaptation is not under conscious control.

 

[microstrip]

(...) How do you know you didn’t simply become accustomed to the sound?

Well, no one can prove it to you, but usually I focus on some small details and follow them along time. It is much easier to do it with digital, that is intrinsically accurate, than with pleasant analog. Bloom and continuousness can not be imagined - it is very easy do disturb them in a system, and IMHO it is one the things that goes away with a non burn-in Shunyata power conditioning device.

Sometimes it is easier to detect when something goes wrong than when something improves. Harshness in digital is unbearable, you would need a very long time to get used to it!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ls units certainly need a " burn in". I d say a month or so , mechanical and electrical.
What i like about those big SS class A Amps is that they certainly sound better / more juicy after a couple of hours.
My next one is probably a big Bad vitus SS 101