World Premiere Review of the $2200 Densen Integrated Amp:

[Musica Bella]

I won't comment on the review or the back and forth with Andre and Mep. As Andre mentioned having some designers chime in about volume controls, I thought I would post my opinion on this subject.
I design the Purity Audio Design product line which consist mostly of preamps. Over the years of R&D for this line, a lot of testing went into volume controls and their impact on the sound. In a nutshell, they are critical. There are many good and bad examples available to manufactures but much of this will be determined by price points and features one looks for. Our upper end models utilize autoformer attenuation as well as custom designed "secondary" autoformers for output gain versatility in a very unique implementation.
Other features we looked for in our input stage was the ability to have phase reversal which I believe is important in today's equipment as well as ballanced inputs and full remote capability.
In the end, the autoformer based volume and secondary gain setting system proved to be an exceptional route and provided one of the purest signal paths without sonic degradation as well as a host of features we were looking for. Granted there are other very good options out there and I will not get into debates of what is the best as there will be too many opinions.

A debate is an argument with no possibility of a winner.

 

[Andre Marc]

I won't comment on the review or the back and forth with Andre and Mep. As Andre mentioned having some designers chime in about volume controls, I thought I would post my opinion on this subject.
I design the Purity Audio Design product line which consist mostly of preamps. Over the years of R&D for this line, a lot of testing went into volume controls and their impact on the sound. In a nutshell, they are critical. There are many good and bad examples available to manufactures but much of this will be determined by price points and features one looks for. Our upper end models utilize autoformer attenuation as well as custom designed "secondary" autoformers for output gain versatility in a very unique implementation.
Other features we looked for in our input stage was the ability to have phase reversal which I believe is important in today's equipment as well as ballanced inputs and full remote capability.
In the end, the autoformer based volume and secondary gain setting system proved to be an exceptional route and provided one of the purest signal paths without sonic degradation as well as a host of features we were looking for. Granted there are other very good options out there and I will not get into debates of what is the best as there will be too many opinions.

A debate is an argument with no possibility of a winner.

Thank you very much for your post.

Very timely, and coincidental.

Yes, volume control implementation IS critical. This is NOT up for debate.

Your choice of autofomer solution is considered the most advanced, and the most expensive to implement.

I mention this is timely because I am embarking on a series of passive linestage reviews. I hesitate to call
them "preamps" since there is no amplification or gain stage. I have units coming in from Music First, CIA,
and Luminous Audio.

My research tells me the autoformer attenuation is costly, but has many superior technical advantages,
and as you mention, offers superior transparency etc.

Of course other, potentiometer solutions can be outstanding as well.

The reason I stressed the quality of the volume control in the Densen B-110 is that
it is highly unusual to see such a high quality VC in a sub $5000 component.

Thanks again!

 

[Musica Bella]

Thanks for the comments Andre. I will be curious as to your findings on "passive preamps". Our preamps mentioned above with the autoformers also have a passive feature but still utilize the transformer coupling when in this mode.
I have my own opinion about passives but am eager to see what you find and the conclusions you come to.

 

[Andre Marc]

Thanks for the comments Andre. I will be curious as to your findings on "passive preamps". Our preamps mentioned above with the autoformers also have a passive feature but still utilize the transformer coupling when in this mode.
I have my own opinion about passives but am eager to see what you find and the conclusions you come to.

Hi Bill:

What is leading me on this journey is a theory that the weakest link in a system is an active preamp, unless it is
of the highest quality with no stone unturned. I have heard your preamps driving Carver amps at several shows
and if you remember, I noted it in several show reports for PFO as having sounded outstanding.

Back to passive, in theory, when adding another gain stage, more parts, extra wire, etc, no "good" can come of it.
Couple that with the fact that most sources today can drive a power amp directly, the only need a preamp should
fill is attenuation. (Again, this is all theory!).

That being said, active preamps can sound phenomenal and enhance the sound.

I am evaluating these passives with the premise that source connected to a high quality attenuator with no gain
to power amp is the shortest, most transparent signal path. We shall see.

The Music First units are expensive and are TVC based.

I don't mind if you want to provide your thoughts on passives. I can tell you
that no matter what you or I think, they are not for everybody.

 

[Musica Bella]

What is leading me on this journey is a theory that the weakest link in a system is an active preamp, unless it is of the highest quality with no stone unturned. I have heard your preamps driving Carver amps at several shows and if you remember, I noted it in several show reports for PFO as having sounded outstanding.

Yes you have and obviously we appreciate all the great comments about our preamps mated with Carver amplifiers. Thank you.

I don't mind if you want to provide your thoughts on passives. I can tell you that no matter what you or I think, they are not for everybody.

I think I will hold off on these comments.....for now. This is another one of those topics that's stirs people up and starts heated debates even though they are based purely on personal opinions. As not to hijack this thread on the Densen review, maybe a new thread should be started?

 

[Steve williams]

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?284-Passive-Preamps&p=2244&viewfull=1#post2244

 

[Andre Marc]

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?284-Passive-Preamps&p=2244&viewfull=1#post2244

Thanks Steve! Boy, I see a lot off iffy comments here..like "sources are designed for active preamps"...which is actually not true in
most cases.

I will jump in later.

 

[Andre Marc]

Yes you have and obviously we appreciate all the great comments about our preamps mated with Carver amplifiers. Thank you.



I think I will hold off on these comments.....for now. This is another one of those topics that's stirs people up and starts heated debates even though they are based purely on personal opinions. As not to hijack this thread on the Densen review, maybe a new thread should be started?

No heated debates needed!

Actually, it seems we were beaten to the punch..I will jump on that thread later.

 

[agisthos]

Regarding Densen and volume controls, they use a relay switched attenuation controlled by a microprocessor. A few audio companies are using this method now, but Densen were one of the early ones to do it with the B-250 pre-amp in 2004.

They have incorporated it into their entire product line-up, except for the B-200 pre which uses a standard alps volume pot. Thomas Sillesen said he wanted to remove the B-200 from the product line-up and do an updated product, but everyone loves the big volume knob so he keeps manufacturing it.

 

[Andre Marc]

Regarding Densen and volume controls, they use a relay switched attenuation controlled by a microprocessor. A few audio companies are using this method now, but Densen were one of the early ones to do it with the B-250 pre-amp in 2004.

They have incorporated it into their entire product line-up, except for the B-200 pre which uses a standard alps volume pot. Thomas Sillesen said he wanted to remove the B-200 from the product line-up and do an updated product, but everyone loves the big volume knob so he keeps manufacturing it.

Agisthos:

Thanks for this inside information. From what I have heard about Sillesen, his love of music guides his engineering decisions. The proof is in the
listening. Build and aesthetics at this level at this price point are unparalleled in my opinion.

 

[agisthos]

Agisthos:

Thanks for this inside information. From what I have heard about Sillesen, his love of music guides his engineering decisions. The proof is in the
listening. Build and aesthetics at this level at this price point are unparalleled in my opinion.

Yeah I love the aesthetics as well. Especially in the albino/silver color.
There are a lot of reviews of the B-200 and B-310, Andre why don't you try and get your hands on the B250/330 as that combo gets barely looked at and is apparently a large step up in sound quality. Its still very affordable in the grand scheme of this hobby.

For the US market I hope Densen does well, but the lack of XLR tends to put off people in the premium end of the market, who have what seems like a religious obsession with balanced connections.

 

[Andre Marc]

Yeah I love the aesthetics as well. Especially in the albino/silver color.
There are a lot of reviews of the B-200 and B-310, Andre why don't you try and get your hands on the B250/330 as that combo gets barely looked at and is apparently a large step up in sound quality. Its still very affordable in the grand scheme of this hobby.

For the US market I hope Densen does well, but the lack of XLR tends to put off people in the premium end of the market, who have what seems like a religious obsession with balanced connections.

I reviewed the B-200 with the B-310 and that was ridiculously good sounding for under $5000.

I am kind of limited by what the US importer has in stock. I agree that they deserve good exposure in the US.

The XLR thing to me is nonsense. I've never heard an advantage unless the gear was spefically designed around a balanced circuit. Some of best designers in high end audio feel that it is totally unnecessary. I heard this directly from the folks at CJ, Manley, Lamm, and a slew of others. Those guys (and gals) know a thing or two.

Yes, I know there are others that swear by it like Charles Hansen of Ayre, and the folks at BAT, and even ARC.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Densens been around for ages, never got any traction in the US.

 

[Andre Marc]

Densens been around for ages, never got any traction in the US.

True, and not because of sound quality. They have never been served well in the past by their importers who
tended to put in a minimal effort.

There are slew of brands in Europe that can't get arrested here...Copland, Sugden, Cyrus, Leema, etc.

 

[agisthos]

More Densen news - they have been claiming to be working on a DAC for ever. Well they now have 4 new DenDAC's coming out, covering all prices ranges.

The Densen Beat 100 was in many ways the best integrated amp I ever had, and I only sold it due to lack of remote control. Will have to check out their more recent offerings.

 

[Andre Marc]

More Densen news - they have been claiming to be working on a DAC for ever. Well they now have 4 new DenDAC's coming out, covering all prices ranges.

The Densen Beat 100 was in many ways the best integrated amp I ever had, and I only sold it due to lack of remote control. Will have to check out their more recent offerings.

Thanks for the heads up..I will request a sample of one of the DACs.

I have it on the authority from those who heard both the B-100 an the B-110, that the B-110 is a
step forward in refinement.

 

[Ki Choi]

Yes, rarely anything with even an iota of positivism about any topic.

In defense of Mark, I thought this was pretty positive:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-good-music-*server*&highlight=Toshiba+laptop



Ki