ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[andromedaaudio]

I think mike has passed that stage already , the next best reviewer thing , as have many on this forum

Its hard to say for magazines that an amp of for example the year 1990 still betters todays offerings , they wont sell much adds then .

With all due respect though to stereophile and M fremer which i think is a genuine magazine

 

[bonzo75]

Mike has the best room, Fremer barely has a room

What Mike says will not apply to most as they have compromised rooms and systems, what Fremer says won't apply to most as most have a better room/speaker match

 

[dctom]

Mike has the best room, Fremer barely has a room

What Mike says will not apply to most as they have compromised rooms and systems, what Fremer says won't apply to most as most have a better room/speaker match

I take your point Ked, however as you know I think highly of Ypsilon stuff. But rather than dismiss Fremer out of hand (I am as skeptical as you) he is comparing within the same context.

The reason I thought it was interesting and I was being tongue in cheek, I seem to remember Mike was looking for something that might have the drama, texture, romance haha of the Lamms coupled with the detail and power of the Darts.

The hyperions do 370watts into 8 ohms - Ben Lilly from atc told me there was no substitute for high wattage when driving speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

I was not dismissing Fremer or commenting on your post Dave, but the one after that comparing them as reviewers. The Ypsilon phono you have is probably the best as per reports, but the Aeilus hybrid at 37k euro is not good enough. These Hyperion monos at twice their price and power is maybe what it takes Ypsilon to get right what they should have at 18k

 

[dctom]

Thanks for clarification Ked. The Ys are crazy money as you say.

 

[cjfrbw]

I remember at RMAF a few years ago the room withe the Lansche (plasma tweeter)/Ypsilon (SET 100) pile . It was remarkable for it's enormous size and cost and it's completely ordinary if not forgettable sound quality. A couple of us went in and went "Meh" after a few minutes. Fremer was in there bopping like it was the best thing he had ever heard. He was on the crest of his Ypsilon phase. There were certainly dozens of setups at the show at different cost ranges that sounded much better to me.

Although show conditions are not always a good arbiter, and I have heard Ypsilon electronics sound pretty good on about six different occasions, my thought at the time was reinforced that edifice systems don't necessarily sound good, and that critics are marketing politicians. It doesn't mean that you can't read between the lines, and that some commentary isn't honest, but you really can only use them as guide rails to items you should always just hear for yourself.

They will, however, point you reliably towards what is expensive and fashionable currently, albeit stuff that will be tomorrow's road kill on the audio critic super highway.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I will be curious to see what you will be spinning on those Pendragons once you have it up and running...I suspect it won't be largely what you say are your current preferences... The gear will guide your music preference I suspect...

If you wanted to stay "neutral" in that regard then a big electrostat like the Sound Labs Majestic would work as it will deliver the goods with most music. A mid-sized, well integrated horn like the AC Symphonia will also remain relatively genre agnostic. Most other speakers will push their owners in a direction...often without their realization.

People on this thread seem to be needing 400-500 watts on a 97db speaker...

For my musical preferences and sonic preferences I am afraid I have to disagree on all points.

Nothing is going to change my musical preferences, and you can simply feel free to disagree with the equipment I wish to use to effectuate my musical preferences most realistically for me.

A full range electrostatic does not work for me at all because I find it lacking in body from the lower midrange on down, and because I need oomph and dynamic impact from the upper bass and below.

I totally disagree that horns are music genre agnostic. If I listened primarily to jazz there is no doubt I would have horns. Listening to vocals on horns I have some transparency issue (which remains a bit of a mystery and hard to diagnose).

 

[caesar]

For my musical preferences and sonic preferences I am afraid I have to disagree on all points.

Nothing is going to change my musical preferences, and you can simply feel free to disagree with the equipment I wish to use to effectuate my musical preferences most realistically for me.

A full range electrostatic does not work for me at all because I find it lacking in body from the lower midrange on down, and because I need oomph and dynamic impact from the upper bass and below.

I totally disagree that horns are music genre agnostic. If I listened primarily to jazz there is no doubt I would have horns. Listening to vocals on horns I have some transparency issue (which remains a bit of a mystery and hard to diagnose).

Interesting comment about jazz and horns, Ron. I always thought that people that gravitated toward horns were folks into music with big dynamic swings, such as orchestral. (And occasional Led Zepplin!) Can you please say more?

Also, for your amps, I know it's BIG MONEY, but have you given a thought to Atma-sphere MA-3s? Amazing transparency to music and liquidity on all Atma-sphere models, and that model will drive anything.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I take your point Ked, however as you know I think highly of Ypsilon stuff. But rather than dismiss Fremer out of hand (I am as skeptical as you) he is comparing within the same context.

The reason I thought it was interesting and I was being tongue in cheek, I seem to remember Mike was looking for something that might have the drama, texture, romance haha of the Lamms coupled with the detail and power of the Darts.

The hyperions do 370watts into 8 ohms - Ben Lilly from atc told me there was no substitute for high wattage when driving speakers.

keep in mind that there will be an upgrade to my dart 458's sometime soon ('soon' in darTZeel terms being possibly only slightly shorter than 'soon' in glacial terms) and I understand that this upgrade will richen the tonal balance and improve the nuance handling......increase delicacy. I expect that within a year to 18 months.

so finding alternatives to the 458's is simply not anything i'm even pondering. i'll just keep moving down the darTZeel path and enjoy it.

so 'like the dart' but a little different has zero attraction for me. but it could answer someone's else's question. and with amplifiers individual contexts are dominant.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My guess Mike is you want a proper alternative, not a complement.

 

[dctom]

Hi Mike

As everyone else seems to be egging you on to try out gear, just thought I'd add my t'pence worth!
There is also the synergy between the 18NS and 458s I guess.

 

[microstrip]

Mike has the best room, Fremer barely has a room

What Mike says will not apply to most as they have compromised rooms and systems, what Fremer says won't apply to most as most have a better room/speaker match

Ked,

Although I take reviews with many grains of salt, I can not agree with such overbearing affirmations. Just because you share Mike preferences and think you can imagine what Fremer systems sounds like does not give enough support to make such strong statements.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked,

Although I take reviews with many grains of salt, I can not agree with such overbearing affirmations. Just because you share Mike preferences and think you can imagine what Fremer systems sounds like does not give enough support to make such strong statements.

Micro, no cone can sound good in such a small room, let alone Alexandria. Possibly not even the standamounts

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike

As everyone else seems to be egging you on to try out gear, just thought I'd add my t'pence worth!
There is also the synergy between the 18NS and 458s I guess.

my firm belief is that the dart pre seems to work perfectly well with pretty much anything. maybe the 50ohm zeel interface gives the 458's a leg up. but observe Fremer using it with lots of amplifiers pretty much without issue. nary an issue with any I've tried either.

might the big Lamm LL1.1 be better into the ML3's? we don't really know that......yet. it would not surprise me if it was not better, maybe slightly different.

 

[microstrip]

Micro, no cone can sound good in such a small room, let alone Alexandria. Possibly not even the standamounts

Again, just your opinion. This subject is periodically debated in audio forums and magazine blogs and many people who have been there and I have reasons to consider tell otherwise. I do not have the exact dimensions, but as far as I remember the room is referred as being very cramped, not minimal size.

 

[microstrip]

Someone mentioned Fremer earlier.

He has just reviewed Ypsilon's Hyperion mono power amps - most musically enjoyable he has heard and he has the Dart 458s. (...)

Thanks for pointing it. Can you tell us where? I only knew that Jacob Heilbrunn had given them a 2017 Golden Ear Awards.

 

[dctom]

Thanks for pointing it. Can you tell us where? I only knew that Jacob Heilbrunn had given them a 2017 Golden Ear Awards.

There is a review in April's Stereophile.

 

[dctom]

my firm belief is that the dart pre seems to work perfectly well with pretty much anything. maybe the 50ohm zeel interface gives the 458's a leg up. but observe Fremer using it with lots of amplifiers pretty much without issue. nary an issue with any I've tried either.

might the big Lamm LL1.1 be better into the ML3's? we don't really know that......yet. it would not surprise me if it was not better, maybe slightly different.

I agree the Dart pre is an excellent amp - I did have the original model one.

 

[Steve williams]

my firm belief is that the dart pre seems to work perfectly well with pretty much anything. maybe the 50ohm zeel interface gives the 458's a leg up. but observe Fremer using it with lots of amplifiers pretty much without issue. nary an issue with any I've tried either.

might the big Lamm LL1.1 be better into the ML3's? we don't really know that......yet. it would not surprise me if it was not better, maybe slightly different.

This is where we disagree Mike. Your Dart may be different but I can assure you that paired with the ML3 it is not better than the LL1. Sorry Mike. Speculation is OK but the ML3 LP1 and LL1 were designed to function together. It’s his Signature series. Best I can tell you is your Dart is different but it isn’t better with the ML3. You’re wrong on this one Mike. Same way your preamp was designed with your amp in mind so also the LL1/ML3

 

[microstrip]

There is a review in April's Stereophile.

Thanks - I really missed this review. Just went through it - wow! M. Fremer really felt in love!