Zellaton and my ascent to Soulution

[pk_LA]

Delays are not unique to the audio sector alone and probably not worth overstating the inconvenience, especially when clients are not aggrieved, like Mike above. He received his 727 pre and 757 phono within weeks of ordering and I’ve provided a loaner new Soulution amplifier to him in the interim Even Myles Astor, another Soulution client of mine, had to wait and I provided a loaner to him as well until his order came in. I do realize, however, that waiting can be an annoyance - so I am sensitized to some of the sentiments here.

I appreciate you comparing audio delays to other sectors. The ones that I am familiar with in technology require that the seller offer the buyer a full refund in the event that a shipping delay is materially missed. Is the audio sector unique in that regard?

I would not characterize delays as merely inconveniences. Please consider this.

Audio equipment is ever evolving. In other words, with time and competition the products continually evolve and get better. I highly doubt that the top-flight solid state amplifiers available today will not be bettered in the next 10 years. So, with time, there is a diminishing return.

Time is money. A 3 month delay on $250,000 amounts to ~$31,000 of accrued interest at 5%.

So, this is less about being 'sensitized', or 'aggrieved', or even 'inconvenienced'. It is about business. I have said several times...At the end of the day, this is just stuff we buy.

 

[Steve williams]

Delays are not unique to the audio sector alone and probably not worth overstating the inconvenience, especially when clients are not aggrieved, like Mike above. He received his 727 pre and 757 phono within weeks of ordering and I’ve provided a loaner new Soulution amplifier to him in the interim Even Myles Astor, another Soulution client of mine, had to wait and I provided a loaner to him as well until his order came in. I do realize, however, that waiting can be an annoyance - so I am sensitized to some of the sentiments here.

I’m just reading this now and cannot believe how a comment has blown up like a balloon full of helium. This is part and parcel of the industry. Let me refer members reading this to the Taiko Olympus thread where preorders were taken in Nov 2023 and the unit was not even in production. I waitrd 10 months to get mine and there are still members who have waited 14-15 months. The natives are restless but there is no name calling Mike is waiting for delivery and is a happy camper and look at the gossip started here with baseless accusations.

As for Gideon look at what he had done in good faith to those who are waiting. by providing loaner gear. What is the issue here. I see none

Finally I just ordered a very expensive set of Zellaton speakers and have already sold my speakers. I was told it would take a minimum of 4 months to get them. I was happy to wsit. Gideon called me and told me he is sending me a loaner set of Zellaton Plural Evos until my speakers arrive. This to me is the type of dealer I I do business with People order Ferraris and Porsches and easily wait over a year to get them.

I’m mind boggled by some of the casual comments I have read here. Personally I see no issue. Mike has started a thread which we have enjoyed reading. He has never asked for a refund nor has the company or Soulution ever been asked to refund the money

Is there something I’m missing or can we agree this is a non issue and get back to reading a great thread.

 

[Steve williams]

I appreciate you comparing audio delays to other sectors. The ones that I am familiar with in technology require that the seller offer the buyer a full refund in the event that a shipping delay is materially missed. Is the audio sector unique in that regard?

I would not characterize delays as merely inconveniences. Please consider this.

Audio equipment is ever evolving. In other words, with time and competition the products continually evolve and get better. I highly doubt that the top-flight solid state amplifiers available today will not be bettered in the next 10 years. So, with time, there is a diminishing return.

Time is money. A 3 month delay on $250,000 amounts to ~$31,000 of accrued interest at 5%.

So, this is less about being 'sensitized', or 'aggrieved', or even 'inconvenienced'. It is about business. I have said several times...At the end of the day, this is just stuff we buy.

Why would they offer a refund if it was never requested Again I suggest this is the nature of the industry

 

[pk_LA]

Why would they offer a refund if it was never requested Again I suggest this is the nature of the industry

Three letters. FTC

 

[Steve williams]

I once ordered a Porsche many years ago when I had judt moved to California. I waited 10 months to receive. Porsche never offered a refund to me.

 

[pk_LA]

I once ordered a Porsche many years ago when I had judt moved to California. I waited 10 months to receive. Porsche never offered a refund to me.

Had you asked they would not have resisted offering one. I think you know that I have somewhat intimate knowledge on that example particularly.


Per the FTC, "If a seller anticipates a delay, they must promptly inform customers and give them the option to cancel and receive a full refund."

 

[Colekat]

Any business is prone to delays , for many reasons … I know one issue arose from waiting on a supply chain that has been inconsistent as of late for everything … why not amplifiers !
Cyril was waiting on something that was used in logistics

In the end … no one wants an amp with issues … and certainly Soulution doesn't want bad press . Its a new , totally redeveloped product , from the ground up … from a company that has been dormant for awhile … surely Cyril wants this a close to problem free as possible …

And so do I ….

The last thing I want is to unpack the amp/s … have an issue , pack it up , send it wherever and know that it was flawed out of the crate …

 

[pk_LA]

I’m just reading this now and cannot believe how a comment has blown up like a balloon full of helium. This is part and parcel of the industry. Let me refer members reading this to the Taiko Olympus thread where preorders were taken in Nov 2023 and the unit was not even in production. I waitrd 10 months to get mine and there are still members who have waited 14-15 months. The natives are restless but there is no name calling Mike is waiting for delivery and is a happy camper and look at the gossip started here with baseless accusations.

As for Gideon look at what he had done in good faith to those who are waiting. by providing loaner gear. What is the issue here. I see none

Finally I just ordered a very expensive set of Zellaton speakers and have already sold my speakers. I was told it would take a minimum of 4 months to get them. I was happy to wsit. Gideon called me and told me he is sending me a loaner set of Zellaton Plural Evos until my speakers arrive. This to me is the type of dealer I I do business with People order Ferraris and Porsches and easily wait over a year to get them.

I’m mind boggled by some of the casual comments I have read here. Personally I see no issue. Mike has started a thread which we have enjoyed reading. He has never asked for a refund nor has the company or Soulution ever been asked to refund the money

Is there something I’m missing or can we agree this is a non issue and get back to reading a great thread.

Almost nothing in your post is accurate. There is no gossip or baseless accusations in my posts. If you like, I am happy to provide more context. As you most likely know, I leave that out so as to be respectful.

 

[Steve williams]

Had you asked they would not have resisted offering one. I think you know that I have somewhat intimate knowledge on that example particularly.


Per the FTC, "If a seller anticipates a delay, they must promptly inform customers and give them the option to cancel and receive a full refund."

But Patrick….that’s my point Mike is not asking. He is patiently waiting. Can you understand. So also when I ordered my car. I had no issue and never sought a refund.

 

[HP_buddy]

Seeing this thread I wish to add that my new Soulution 331 integrated amplifier partnered with my pair of Zellaton Plural Evos continue to be a match made in music heaven. I have now had this partnership in my listening room for several months and it is like the best drug in the world - absolutely addictive for any music lover to explore every genre of music on great recordings. I can't wait each day to get into the listening room. This partnership astounds me every time I sit down for a listen. My listening room walls and loudspeakers disappear and every great recording (now listening to our buddy, David Chesky's, fantastic natural recordings) brings its own studio space uncannily into my room. Each instrumental and vocal tone and texture is vitally present and flows naturally and organically on favorite recordings.. Large scale music - Reiner's orchestras to Maria Schneider's brilliant big ensembles- are heard in airy collective grandeur with every instrumental section layered in a soundscape that is uniquely individualized and deep in my room. The "Soulution bass" is another new frontier in my room. Powerful, pungent, coherent without bloat and so natural in flow and dynamic energy on recordings that properly capture those low instruments and rock solid foundations. From Warren Haynes' scorching guitar (every string bend blistering!) to jazz vocalist Samara Joy's explorations on her latest album (ah, her powerful breathy solos and plunges are to die for!) I've got a big slice of the real thing heard on my visits to halls and clubs for concerts (more than I have heard in 30 + years of audio exploration). All brought into my life by my mentor and friend, Gideon Schwartz, whose superb ears and good heart have led me to this treasure chest. Take note folks: Soulution's latest designs are thrilling to hear - and this example only with the 331- (the lowest rung on Soulution's new designs) partnered with the brilliant Zellatons. I bet the wait will be well worth it for the top designs to be completed by the Soulution team, judging from my admiration for the 331. If you are lucky to have Gideon, Soulution and Zellaton on your team, you are fortunate indeed!

 

[Steve williams]

Frankly Patrick I’m not interested in gossip.

Did your dealer offer you a refund

Here’s what you posted

I am familiar with in technology require that the seller offer the buyer a full refund in the event that a shipping delay is materially missed. Is the audio sector unique in that regard?

I did not read in your post that you have to ask

I really feel that gossip is just that and has no place here on WBF.

 

[pk_LA]

Frankly Patrick I’m not interested in gossip.

Did your dealer offer you a refund

Here’s what you posted


I did not read in your post that you have to ask

I really feel that gossip is just that and has no place here on WBF.

I was being polite. Would you prefer that I just copy/paste the FTC rules? There is NO gossip here, Steve. Well, maybe some. But not from me.

 

[pk_LA]

I feel that there are two points embedded here.

The first is around people making declarations about a product's sonics when that product is still in development.

The second is around the indeterminate delays.

 

[John T]

Seeing this thread I wish to add that my new Soulution 331 integrated amplifier partnered with my pair of Zellaton Plural Evos continue to be a match made in music heaven. I have now had this partnership in my listening room for several months and it is like the best drug in the world - absolutely addictive for any music lover to explore every genre of music on great recordings. I can't wait each day to get into the listening room. This partnership astounds me every time I sit down for a listen. My listening room walls and loudspeakers disappear and every great recording (now listening to our buddy, David Chesky's, fantastic natural recordings) brings its own studio space uncannily into my room. Each instrumental and vocal tone and texture is vitally present and flows naturally and organically on favorite recordings.. Large scale music - Reiner's orchestras to Maria Schneider's brilliant big ensembles- are heard in airy collective grandeur with every instrumental section layered in a soundscape that is uniquely individualized and deep in my room. From Warren Haynes' scorching guitar (every string bend blistering!) to jazz vocalist Samara Joy's explorations on her latest album (ah, her powerful breathy solos and plunges are to die for!) I've got a big slice of the real thing heard on my visits to halls and clubs for concerts (more than I have heard in 30 + years of audio exploration). All brought into my life by my mentor and friend, Gideon Schwartz, whose superb ears and good heart have led me to this treasure chest. Take note folks: Soulution's latest designs are thrilling to hear - and this example only with the 331- (the lowest rung on Soulution's new designs) partnered with the brilliant Zellatons. I bet the wait will be well worth it for the top designs to be completed by the Soulution team, judging from my admiration for the 331. If you are lucky to have Gideon, Soulution and Zellaton on your team, you are fortunate indeed!

Warren Haynes: Lovely. May I make a suggestion? Listen to his version of John The Revelator and One...

 

[Kingsrule]

This thread took a troubling turn. Ron R posted a point-of-view and that (along with responding posts) have been removed.

Yea, Steve moving to protect his new buddy/dealer...Editing/removing posts here has got to stop

 

[treitz3]

With all due respect, you can stop with the conspiracy theories. I can confirm that Steve did not delete them. They were temporarily deleted by one of the members of WBF management and are pending review.

They may or may not return. They are still visible to management, but are hidden from public view at the moment, FWIW.

Tom

 

[pk_LA]

With all due respect, you can stop with the conspiracy theories. I can confirm that Steve did not delete them. They were temporarily deleted by one of the members of WBF management and are pending review.

They may or may not return. They are still visible to management, but are hidden from public view at the moment, FWIW.

Tom

Whichever way you end up ruling I recommend that you clarify what rule(s) were broken that led to a) quarantine and b) removal

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Gideon has heard the Soulution 717 amps. Clearly, he is not in Switzerland listening to the final tweaked versions. However, if a pre-production unit sounded that good to Gideon, then the final version with incremental improvements should logically be even better.

At this high-level, relationships and integrity are critical. I've known Gideon for over five years. I find him to be honest, knowledgeable and forthcoming. He is attuned to my preferences, and his suggestions over the years have made profound improvements in my system. When Gideon says that the 717’s will be a game changer in my system, I take that at face value.

Maybe it's my naivety, but I look at this less cynically. Through my own personal experience, I have found that most high-end manufacturers have an extraordinary passion for their work. Especially those that are pushing the state-of-the-art forward. To generate hype and then delay the introduction of a statement product, thereby irritating their most loyal and fervent customers, does not make sense to me.

Both me and pk_LA only have commented on the fact that amps have been crowned as "amazing" & "best of the best" and shadowed with other superlatives, without any actual customer auditioning commercially released units in their own systems. No one (at least not me) has dared to criticize folks that are willing to buy these amplifiers, nor made any derogatory comments about the manufacturer& dealer. Quite the contrary. I just commented on marketing technique common in the ultra luxury goods market segments, which is hardly unique to the world of high end audio. Instead of posting angry tirades as some here have done on the subject, it would not hurt to actually read comments in the context. That is all to it. I shall await the impressions of the new Soulution amps from their new owners, and especially how these sound with Mike's Zellatons, impatiently!

 

[Steve williams]

Both me and pk_LA only have commented on the fact that amps have been crowned as "amazing" & "best of the best" and shadowed with other superlatives, without any actual customer auditioning commercially released units in their own systems. No one (at least not me) has dared to criticize folks that are willing to buy them, nor made any derogatory comments about the manufacturer& dealer. Quite the contrary. I just commented on marketing technique common in the ultra luxury goods market segments, which is hardly unique to the world of high end audio. Instead of posting angry tirades as some here have done on the subject, it would not hurt to actually read comments in the context. That is all to it. I shall await the impressions of the new Soulution amps from their new owners impatiently!

Again let me direct you to the Taiko Olympus thread where it was not in production and IIRC took in about 160 preorders over 14 months ago I understand your argument but what I don’t understand is if a prospective owner has these concerns why do they still pony up and buy one without waiting for user reviews

 

[pk_LA]

Again let me direct you to the Taiko Olympus thread where it was not in production and IIRC took in about 160 preorders over 14 months ago I understand your argument but what I don’t understand is if a prospective owner has these concerns why do they still pony up and buy one.

Allow me to try and help you with your confusion. Prospective owners 'pony up' based on a collection of information. One of those pieces of information is the release date or window.