Image Height/Vertical Placement?

[Zuman]

I expect that I'm being ignorant here, but I don't understand much of the talk about image height among audiophiles.
My system's special strength is imaging, but largely in the areas of the left/center/right and near/mid-distance/far dimensions, and I don't notice a great deal of placement precision between my floor and six-ish feet above the floor, from where I'd expect most musical sounds to originate.
I listen to live music (amplified and unamplified) at least once a week most weeks, and I'm not particularly aware of vertical pinpointing of sound then, either.
I can only think of a few situations in which I'd expect to notice the height of a music source "in real life," and most of those are when I would be sitting very close to an unamplified performer (a violinist or cellist in my living room, for example); in most other cases the venue of the performance seems to "take over" as the dominant factor in placing sounds. I've also sat in a couple of recording studio control rooms, and in those cases I haven't seen microphone or mixing techniques deliberately focused on locking in the height of a source.
Can those of you with state-of-the-art systems really tell that a vocalist is 5'6" tall or that a tom might sit 14" lower than a hihat? Thanks!

 

[sbnx]

Can those of you with state-of-the-art systems really tell that a vocalist is 5'6" tall or that a tom might sit 14" lower than a hihat? Thanks!

Yes

 

[TonyW]

Yes, for me too. I don‘t know how the system does it. Singer‘s voices in some, not all recordings will be about 6‘ above the floor but their guitar is 3-4‘ above the floor. Some Chorale pieces have the choir voices going from 3‘ above the floor to the ceiling and extending beyond the side walls. Drums are at differing heights too and cymbls typically about 4‘ above the floor.

Not all recordings are that good. Some have the voice just 3-4‘ above the floor and their instrument at the same height. I can‘t remember which recording now but it was a live performance and the electric guitar amp/speaker was on the floor to the right and in the back. That was cool.

 

[Rexp]

Son of a Preacher Man from the Dusty in Memphis album is good for demonstrating imaging in all directions including height.

 

[hoodjem]

When I used a Cary CAD-280SA V12 tube amp to drive my Martin Logan CLS II speakers, there were occasions when I felt like I could hear that the microphones were in the air above the players.

When I would close my eyes and tried to imagine where the orchestra was, it seemed to be “down there” a little below the mid-point of the soundstage.

 

[Kingrex]

When I hear amazing placement of soundstage, I appreciate it. But I'm far more focused on a natural timber and realistic sound.
Maybe the artifact of soundstage imaging is tied to proper alignment of drivers that creates clear and undistorted playback. High detail. If you have that dialed, the the imaging also seems to pop.

 

[Robh3606]

Can those of you with state-of-the-art systems really tell that a vocalist is 5'6" tall or that a tom might sit 14" lower than a hihat? Thanks!

On a multitrack recording with microphones close to sources height is obviously all over the place. Even a pair of microphones have no encoding for height. ATMOS adds height speakers for this reason. Typically it's your tweeter height that is defining any illusion of height.

Rob

 

[treitz3]

While I am not so certain that it is just the tweeter that defines any illusion of height, you are correct. Stereo does not encode any height information, even though this is clearly what we observe on a fine system. Phase manipulation, reverb and delay and even driver/frequency location(s) can all contribute to the perceived illusion of height differences. Bruce Brown could tell you way more than I could about how this is achieved.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

While I am not so certain that it is just the tweeter that defines any illusion of height, you are correct. Stereo does not encode any height information, even though this is clearly what we observe on a fine system.

Height information is encoded in spectral cues, that can be transmitted through stereo - but we usually are helped in perceiving height learning from visual information. A common example is the spectral differences between sound reflected in the floor and ceiling.

Phase manipulation, reverb and delay and even driver/frequency location(s) can all contribute to the perceived illusion of height differences. Bruce Brown could tell you way more than I could about how this is achieved.

Tom

The best example that I have listened that contradicts our usual feelings was the big Dynaudio Consequence, that had a tweeter at the bottom of the speaker - adequately placed and tuned in a large room it managed to create a soundstage with realistic height!

 

[hopkins]

Son of a Preacher Man from the Dusty in Memphis album is good for demonstrating imaging in all directions including height.

Not really....

 

[Kingrex]

My speaker tweeter was well below my ears and I always felt like I was sitting in a balcony. Getting a stand under the speaker and lifting it so the tweeter was ear level raised the image height to what I felt was a correct level.

 

[ricjor1]

I don't have a state-of-the-art system, but my system does differentiate between heights if the recording allows. Cymbals can be higher than a guitar or piano. If the recording allows, back-up singers can appear to the rear and slightly higher than the lead singer.

 

[Macattack]

Does anyone have any reference recordings with height ‘information’ and specific heights that could be used to check this? My system provides a 3 dimensional sound stage when the recording supports it / has the cues.

What I am thinking about is a bit more specific - the cymbal/sax/voice/triangle/etc should be perceived as being at X” off the ground.

Am I stressing too much?

My thought is to help zero in on take angle using such a reference.

 

[jcn3]

Does anyone have any reference recordings with height ‘information’ and specific heights that could be used to check this? My system provides a 3 dimensional sound stage when the recording supports it / has the cues.

What I am thinking about is a bit more specific - the cymbal/sax/voice/triangle/etc should be perceived as being at X” off the ground.

Am I stressing too much?

My thought is to help zero in on take angle using such a reference.

one song that does this to the extreme is waterloo sunset from something else by the kinks. the background vocalists will float high above and around you.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

soundstage height and depth was a musically important part of an early music choral pressing i posted about a few days ago. hearing groups and individual voices up and down and side to side brought it alive in my room.

large scale choral music has quite the potential to separate levels of success with this issue.

my room excels at sound staging; part of which is that my twin towers of my speaker system are 84" and 86" tall so easily relate all the cues fully. and lots of amplifier headroom to retain ease and authority along with deep bass extension. some systems can run out of gas trying for big music.

and massed vocals leave no place to hide as to whether there is realism and clarity. if choral music congeals or falls flat could be the recording, but could be other places too. maybe it was an accident that as my system improved, my taste for choral music increased. but maybe not. so this issue can open up more music to you as it makes it more real.

 

[Cellcbern]

I listen mostly to jazz, and I can hear and "see" the image height difference between a standing and seated singer, a standing singer and seated guitar player, etc. Imaging varies from recording to recording, but the most realistic of them provide close to life size images with recordings of a small group of musicians and/or singers. Obviously image size shrinks some with orchestral music for example in a 9.5'w x 16'd x 8'h room. Fortunately the small room suits my listening preferences.

 

[Zuman]

When I started this thread I was using my home-built solid wood tower speakers. Since then, I've switched to Von Schweikert Endeavor SEs. While overall tonality and driver integration have improved, I can't say that I've noted significant improvement in the vertical locating of sound sources in the overall soundstage.
When I attended AXPONA this year I paid special attention to this issue. I spent a substantial amount of time listening to the Magico M9/D'Agostino/Wadax system, seated in just about every position, and I did not note much vertical differentiation in that case. I did the same in the Estelon/Vitus room (my favorite system of the show), and also found vertical separation underwhelming. I recognize that show conditions are never ideal, but I thought that AXPONA's exhibitors generally did an outstanding job this year and I was quite impressed otherwise.
As I noted in my initial post, "I can only think of a few situations in which I'd expect to notice the height of a music source "in real life," and most of those are when I would be sitting very close to an unamplified performer (a violinist or cellist in my living room, for example); in most other cases the venue of the performance seems to "take over" as the dominant factor in placing sounds." Given that premise, I'd describe the Magico and Estelon soundstages at AXPONA as "realistic" as opposed to "synthetic."
On the other hand, I suppose it's possible that there's something lacking in my ear/brain interface!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

When I started this thread I was using my home-built solid wood tower speakers. Since then, I've switched to Von Schweikert Endeavor SEs. While overall tonality and driver integration have improved, I can't say that I've noted significant improvement in the vertical locating of sound sources in the overall soundstage.

did your room, set-up and listening position dramatically change between the two speakers? if not there would likely be minimal soundstage change. if you changed driver type that could be big.

When I attended AXPONA this year I paid special attention to this issue. I spent a substantial amount of time listening to the Magico M9/D'Agostino/Wadax system, seated in just about every position, and I did not note much vertical differentiation in that case. I did the same in the Estelon/Vitus room (my favorite system of the show), and also found vertical separation underwhelming. I recognize that show conditions are never ideal, but I thought that AXPONA's exhibitors generally did an outstanding job this year and I was quite impressed otherwise.
As I noted in my initial post, "I can only think of a few situations in which I'd expect to notice the height of a music source "in real life," and most of those are when I would be sitting very close to an unamplified performer (a violinist or cellist in my living room, for example); in most other cases the venue of the performance seems to "take over" as the dominant factor in placing sounds." Given that premise, I'd describe the Magico and Estelon soundstages at AXPONA as "realistic" as opposed to "synthetic."
On the other hand, I suppose it's possible that there's something lacking in my ear/brain interface!

i think especially in sound staging and the last word in bass articulation show systems are not a place to find a reference. better a more modest local audiophile system where the work has been done. the bigger the gear, the less likely that a show system can become high level synergistic. not saying impossible, but certainly not likely proof of your point.

recordings don't tell us ahead of time what subtle spatial cues are hidden inside them. some are very obvious of course if we simply get our wires on the right terminals of the speaker. from there there are infinite possible levels of sound staging we might attain. it's a long rewarding road.

OTOH plenty of great enjoyable music is out there without exceptional sound staging. it's not the only or primary thing. but it can bring us much musical envelopment too and add to our enjoyment.

and spatial cues for the stereo reproduction case are going to be different from the live case. preference about that is personal.

 

[Lee]

While I am not so certain that it is just the tweeter that defines any illusion of height, you are correct. Stereo does not encode any height information, even though this is clearly what we observe on a fine system. Phase manipulation, reverb and delay and even driver/frequency location(s) can all contribute to the perceived illusion of height differences. Bruce Brown could tell you way more than I could about how this is achieved.

Tom

Subwoofers definitely contain height information.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Subwoofers definitely contain height information.

there are overtones from the high frequencies in the bass frequencies. so better lower octaves results in more complete and natural highs. so we hear those elevated things as more complete when our low octaves are right and extended. which enhances height and other sound staging performance things.

when i turn off my subwoofer towers (only under 50hz) my highs lose their proper balance to a degree. how directional those under 50hz frequencies actually are is a different issue. for sure i get perceived low octaves located all over my soundstage.