Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Rensselaer]

People are going to the cinema then, and today everyone ought to know that the home cinema can get you there.

High-end audio is just another entertainment and hobby people can get into. not everyone (actually most people) wants, can, or cares to dive and spend so much money on this kind of entertainment\hobby.

True, and you seem to be saying that for those who take it up as a hobby the high-end is worth it. Correct?

 

[exupgh12]

True, and you seem to be saying that for those who take it up as a hobby the high-end is worth it. Correct?

As a general reminder, passion is personal. I've been deeply invested in audio since my teenage years and absolutely love this hobby. My daughter, who is almost 20, couldn’t care less about it—she’s passionate about animals, traveling abroad, and books instead.

The value of something is ultimately subjective. If someone is willing to pay for it, then it holds worth—at least to them. But that doesn't mean it has to be the same for everyone.

 

[Elliot G.]

Most of your smaller "hig-end" manufacturers are just a few years away from DIY, not long ago they where do it yourselfers. A little more shine, lacker and polish and they are selling a hundred thousand dollar product. What really distinguishes the the commercial "high-end" products is the level of marketing put behind the products. That being Göbels, Wadax, Aries Cerat, Taiko or Lampi. Most of these products are built in low quantities with little long time testing behind them. And sold at crazy prices.

Sorry but I disagree. High End has zero to do with marketing . A high end product has certain characteristics in order for it to be a product and a high end product. HP made this term and he was referring to products that were superior in their ability to reproduce music ( as he defined the absolute sound) and marketing has nothing to do with it. Marketing has to do with the business of audio and selling your products . It is hard to succeed if no one knows who you are.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

In your opinion, is the late Ken Fritz audio system considered a high-end system or not?
His speakers and turntable where DIY.

First that was not my point. My point was YOU making a product for YOU that no one else can get is IMO not high end .Its not high end because it is unknown .What its capabilities are we do not know. All we know is YOU say it is. That IMO is of little validity.
Ken Fritz assembled a system which although I never heard it ( i was contacted about helping them get rid of it) consists of many recognized products. Some of those products would be considered in the high end sphere. I have no comment about the result as I was never there.

 

[Lagonda]

Sorry but I disagree. High End has zero to do with marketing . A high end product has certain characteristics in order for it to be a product and a high end product. HP made this term and he was referring to products that were superior in their ability to reproduce music ( as he defined the absolute sound) and marketing has nothing to do with it. Marketing has to do with the business of audio and selling your products . It is hard to succeed if no one knows who you are.

It's all about perceived superiority, marketing sure helps that perception along. Brands like Wilson and Magico are excellent examples. 20% innovation, 80% hype !

 

[Elliot G.]

It's all about perceived superiority, marketing sure helps that perception along. Brands like Wilson and Magico are excellent examples. 20% innovation, 80% hype !

I wont go there but that is IMO a completely different kettle of fish. Wilson and Magico are High End products and I don't think that is something that anyone would debate.
Marketing and advertising are business tools and what they say may or may not be important or believable but that is a different discussion

 

[Lee]

Coleman Hawkins did not listen to jazz at home - he believed that you had to hear it live. He spend his time at home listening to classical music (source: his biography by John Chilton). I've often wondered about that.

Perhaps he did not experience classical music in concert halls? In NYC, at the time, you could go out every night and listen to live jazz music performed by top musicians - he was regularly performing as well. If you did that, I can understand that you would have less interest in listening to the same music at home. When I went to that "listener" bar in Paris, I asked the bartender if he ever got sick of listening to music all day, and he told me no, but that he was no longer listening at home...

On the other hand, perhaps Coleman Hawkins was just more conscious of the limitations of home stereo when it came to music that he was intimately familiar with? If that's the case, would he have a different point of view if he were to listen to some of today's "high end" systems? I don't think so. For "non audiophiles", the gap between live music and home stereo - regardless of cost - is so wide, that they don't see it as "worth it". They are not deluded like we are. There's no valid answer to the OP's question. It's a personal choice to embark on high end audio, and people do it looking for different things. Some want to recreate a live performance, others want "immersion" which you don't necessarily get in a live performance. Some want to hear the subtle details, that you don't always hear in a live performance. Others don't care about the subtle details, etc...

Ron Carter has a high end system at his house in New York.

 

[hopkins]

Ron Carter has a high end system at his house in New York.

I did not mean to imply that no musicians were audiophiles.
What system does he have?

 

[Lee]

It's all about perceived superiority, marketing sure helps that perception along. Brands like Wilson and Magico are excellent examples. 20% innovation, 80% hype !

But not my MBL speakers! That’s totally different!

You see, the brands I own are fine and innovative!

 

[Rensselaer]

First that was not my point. My point was YOU making a product for YOU that no one else can get is IMO not high end .Its not high end because it is unknown .What its capabilities are we do not know. All we know is YOU say it is. That IMO is of little validity.
Ken Fritz assembled a system which although I never heard it ( i was contacted about helping them get rid of it) consists of many recognized products. Some of those products would be considered in the high end sphere. I have no comment about the result as I was never there.

Elliot, for the most part I agree with your every post but must differ here. "high-end", from my perspective, relates strictly to performance level, whether that performance level is generally known/recognised. If a tree falls in a forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a noise?

 

[hopkins]

I did not mean to imply that no musicians were audiophiles.
What system does he have?

Answering my own question:

Musicians as Audiophiles: Ron Carter

Ronald Levin "Ron" Carter is arguably the greatest upright jazz bassist to have ever walked four strings, and he's literally the most recorded bassist of all time. "With 2,221 individual recording credits, as verified on 15 September 2015," notes Carter's website.

www.stereophile.com

Interessant article.

He has Tetra 606 speakers.

tetra 606

 

[Lagonda]

But not my MBL speakers! That’s totally different!

You see, the brands I own are fine and innovative!

Same shit different company, their market penetration is highly dependent of their aggressive marketing. At least they don't pretend to have discovered the holy grail every 3-4 years like other manufacturers

 

[DasguteOhr]

A good product will always prevail; without advertising, it can take longer for word to spread. A bad aftertaste only develops when you realize that it's being sold too expensively and that many people are trying to profit from it. A good profit margin for a developer who puts their heart and soul into a product is completely legitimate and understandable. Today, that not applies to 99% of so-called high-end hi-fi ; the price structure hasn't been right for at least 10 years. That's why I only use DIY or good used devices for a fair price.

 

[exupgh12]

First that was not my point. My point was YOU making a product for YOU that no one else can get is IMO not high end .Its not high end because it is unknown .What its capabilities are we do not know. All we know is YOU say it is. That IMO is of little validity.
Ken Fritz assembled a system which although I never heard it ( i was contacted about helping them get rid of it) consists of many recognized products. Some of those products would be considered in the high end sphere. I have no comment about the result as I was never there.

Regarding Ken Fritz's system, yes he used manufactured drivers for his speakers, 99% of speaker companies do the same, so where is the difference? The same goes for his turntable.

High-end can be defined by several connections: exclusiveness, craftsmanship, quality, personalization, and rarity. I think Ken Fritz's audio system checks all of them.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, for the most part I agree with your every post but must differ here. "high-end", from my perspective, relates strictly to performance level, whether that performance level is generally known/recognised. If a tree falls in a forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a noise?

Well this is a philosophical discussion then not one based in the real world. How can you verify the performance is High End if no one ever hears it?
Can you get a Michelin Star if no one eats your food? I am not disagreeing that High End is performance based. I totally agree that it is however it also has to be something that is real and IMO it needs to be something that people can hear( I think that it needs to be something that is a product as well but I can understand differing opinions to that however not mine) I feel if it doesn't exist I don't care if a tree falls

 

[Elliot G.]

High-end can be defined by several connections: exclusiveness, craftsmanship, quality, personalization, and rarity. I think Ken Fritz's audio system checks all of them

Here we are back in what is the definition of a high end product. Your definition is not mine nor HP's.
Exclusive, rare, personal all not part of my definition. High end is about craftmanship, high quality, high performance ( performance that exceeds the norm) that I agree but because something is rare or personal does not make it high end .
By this definition most audio does not fit your definition. McIntosh isn't rare, nor is B&W, Nor Focal, etc.

 

[microstrip]

So by that logic anything rare should be dismissed as irrelevant?

Well, IMO in the high-end something that can't be scrutinized should be considered irrelevant. I must say I feel the same for unobtanium.

 

[hopkins]

Answering my own question:

Musicians as Audiophiles: Ron Carter

Ronald Levin "Ron" Carter is arguably the greatest upright jazz bassist to have ever walked four strings, and he's literally the most recorded bassist of all time. "With 2,221 individual recording credits, as verified on 15 September 2015," notes Carter's website.

www.stereophile.com

Interessant article.

He has Tetra 606 speakers.

tetra 606

P.S. the system described in the article below is much more representative, I believe, of what music enthusiasts generally acquire. It's not only a question of budget, but also reflects what an average person would find "good enough" to satisfy their needs:

Musicians As Audiophiles: Dan Weiss

Drummer/composer Dan Weiss has wide-ranging musical tastes, superb skills, and a rocking little Rega-based system in his cozy Brooklyn, New York apartment. Dan has drummed with many jazz greats, but it's his own projects that have generated the greatest interest. He's a thinking musician's...

www.stereophile.com

He has this to say:

"Maybe musicians get more sustenance from listening on a whatever system than an average listener because of their innate musical abilities," Dan replied. "They're listening differently to begin with. They're listening with a different skill set. So musically, they can get a lot of it without using high-end equipment. Or perhaps since musicians have gone through such a rigorous amount of listening during their development, once you get bit by a certain bug it doesn't matter what you're listening on. You're listening to music for the sheer emotion and enjoyment and content."

I find this to be the case for a lot of people, not just musicians.

 

[microstrip]

(...) . If a tree falls in a forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a noise?

BTW the interesting question is if a tree falls in a forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? We have two possible outcomes - properly define sound first and the question is simple or make it undefined and create a long thread around sound definitions.

 

[JiminGa]

Here we are back in what is the definition of a high end product. Your definition is not mine nor HP's.
Exclusive, rare, personal all not part of my definition. High end is about craftmanship, high quality, high performance ( performance that exceeds the norm) that I agree but because something is rare or personal does not make it high end .
By this definition most audio does not fit your definition. McIntosh isn't rare, nor is B&W, Nor Focal, etc.

Elliot I believe that after listening to a product and understanding it’s technology it’s fit and finish and how it contributes to great sound most experienced listeners could agree that it is or is not a high end component. Exactly in line with your thoughts. Unfortunately the vast majority of audio which is commonly called high end is because a reviewer or a series of reviewers published opinions about it or because it is very expensive. You yourself have commented on the unreliability of these opinions because of a whole host things. You see this “whisper down the lane” regurgitation of reviewers opinions as facts all the time. The label is meaningless in this context. True high end components are worth it if you believe the improvements gained are in line with the cost paid and that same money would not be better spent elsewhere.