The meaning of measurements

[NorthStar]

But is it one of the goals of measuring, a correlation between what we hear and see (graphs)?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

John, I think you and I listen for the same thing and like the same types of music. IMHO, our ears ( and minds) are NOT blocked

Our musical tastes do run similar, however, even they didn't that wouldn't change my perspective on things. There are a few other things I don't buy into either, but I'll leave that alone for now.

 

[Steve Williams]

I have not yet got the Stereophile issue and never listened to the ML3 - although I hope some day I will - but from what I see at the Lamm site the measurements are poor by current standards and we should assume it. If they really sound magical in the appropriate system this only means that current standards can not be applied at this level of performance.

or perhaps we are all deluded

 

[microstrip]

Vladimir Lamm says he designs all his electronics following his own psychoacoustic model. He goes as far as saying that he doesn't even need to listen. (...)

Jack,
I think over-summarizing risks being misunderstood. IMHO the key aspect is the study and development of the electronic topologies and may be these have been developed and established also by listening. His expertise and knowledge is such now that he can design a product without almost any kind of listening. From Lamm site:

Vladimir's extensive experience in the field of sound reproduction and psycho-acoustics had led him to develop a theory of a "human hearing mechanism" which lies at the basis of all of his designs and which allows him to CREATE THE SOUND. Having experimented with various electronic models of a human hearing mechanism, Vladimir had arrived at a limited number of topologies enabling him to create sound reproduction equipment with PREDEFINED and PREDICTABLE parameters, which, in turn, eliminates the need for trial-and-error approach to design and, as a result, the need for listening tests in a process of product development. (Physical prototypes of new models are completed based solely on calculations; once the prototype is finished, the design is practically ready to go into production.)

 

[hvbias]

Vladimir Lamm says he designs all his electronics following his own psychoacoustic model. He goes as far as saying that he doesn't even need to listen. I don't know of any other designer that has said done anything like this. One thing for sure is that if this is indeed the case, he got to how his products sound through measurements and measurements alone. I also know of no other brand that publishes as broad a set of measurements of their test units AND actually sends a completed test sheet for every amplifier that goes out their door.

If one were to look at the published measurements they do not win the THD wars, the ultimate flatness wars, rise time slew rate wars or whatever. What they do have is a wide and loyal (myself included) customer base that has some models being produced unchanged for over a decade. I can only surmise that the model based on measurements is one that fits a subset that prefers what the products can do.

Personally I don't give stock to measurements much beyond obvious compatibility but it isn't because I don't appreciate that I have them whenever I have taken delivery. It's just that unlike Vladimir, I do not have the ability to correlate the data and in so doing form a firm mental picture of what the products might actually sound like. It is easier for me to just listen the same way a basketball player can more easily get a rebound using his instincts rather than measuring and computing the parabolic path and speed of the ball before and after it hits the rim.

In this interview it sounds like Vladamir does listen to his amps. His comment about AC coupled amps sounding more like real music than DC coupled would imply that.

 

[DaveyF]

In this interview it sounds like Vladamir does listen to his amps. His comment about AC coupled amps sounding more like real music than DC coupled would imply that.

I seem to remember a few years back having a brief conversation with Vladimir at one of the shows, wherein he stated that he does a LOT of listening to gear to see how it performs. At the time, i think he was demo'ing with Metronome and said something to the effect that this gear was to his ears a good match to his amps.
OTOH, i suspect that IF you have heard the various components numerous times that you intend to implement into your gear, then you wouldn't necessarily need to listen to the total design....maybe

 

[microstrip]

I seem to remember a few years back having a brief conversation with Vladimir at one of the shows, wherein he stated that he does a LOT of listening to gear to see how it performs. At the time, i think he was demo'ing with Metronome and said something to the effect that this gear was to his ears a good match to his amps.
OTOH, i suspect that IF you have heard the various components numerous times that you intend to implement into your gear, then you wouldn't necessarily need to listen to the total design....maybe

Do not tell me he was using the Kalista / C2A tubed converter ...

 

[DaveyF]

Don't recall, but he was using the Kalista gear. Sounded very nice with a pair of Wilson Sophia 2's.

 

[jkeny]

We need to invite the objectivist/Double-Blind testing gang over here to this thread so they can start administering some good beatings. Oh wait, I think I hear them coming...standby!

I just slid out the side door of that other thread when I heard them talking about coming over here. But I believe it's safe as they are using their hearing to guide them - so they are walking aimlessly around, bumping into one another. Someone better give them more reliable senses (the eyes are easily fooled too, don't you know) or they'll do themselves an injury. Hope this forum has public liability insurance?

 

[jkeny]

Looking at the philosophy behind the Lamm amp - make everything as simple as possible, reminds me of the Zeus amplifier which I'll be finishing building when I get the time.
It's a very simple amplifier from one of the few women designers in audio http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus.htm

It ticks all the right boxes:
Zero feedback.
Balanced and isolated input and outputs.
Output configurable to drive any impedance load, from electrostatics to sub-ohm parallel linear array loudspeakers
Good EMI/RFI performance.
Low voltage operation ( sub 60 volts ), no potentially lethal HT.
Only two power semiconductors required for Push Pull version.
Minimum components, little opportunity for noise generation (150 dB signal to noise ratio).
No capacitors in the audio signal path.
"Direct" signal connection from input to output.

One of the characteristics that Susan emphasises is her sensitivity to phase anomalies & maybe this is one of the secrets of the magic of the Lamm also? Here's her design philosophy for the amp:

Having considered the matter and listened to various systems and mixed and matched different loudspeakers the one aspect of amplifier design that didn't seem to be given much attention is Phase Distortion. I happen to have hearing that is particularly sensitive to loudspeaker type and discovered that co-axial or point source speakers give a far better stereo image than conventional drive arrangements. Further study led me to conclude that this "muddy" sound was caused by phase issues, particularly noticeable in the crossover regions.

Is it a poor man's Lamm? Don't know, I doubt I will never hear a Lamm

 

[Steve Williams]

It's a very simple amplifier from one of the few women designers in audio http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus.htm

That's why it took him over 5 years to bring it to market

Have you ever seen the amp John or the transformers. If it were simple Vlad would have had it available years ago

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Looking at the philosophy behind the Lamm amp - make everything as simple as possible, reminds me of the Zeus amplifier which I'll be finishing building when I get the time.
It's a very simple amplifier from one of the few women designers in audio http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus.htm

It ticks all the right boxes:
Zero feedback.
Balanced and isolated input and outputs.
Output configurable to drive any impedance load, from electrostatics to sub-ohm parallel linear array loudspeakers
Good EMI/RFI performance.
Low voltage operation ( sub 60 volts ), no potentially lethal HT.
Only two power semiconductors required for Push Pull version.
Minimum components, little opportunity for noise generation (150 dB signal to noise ratio).
No capacitors in the audio signal path.
"Direct" signal connection from input to output.

One of the characteristics that Susan emphasises is her sensitivity to phase anomalies & maybe this is one of the secrets of the magic of the Lamm also? Here's her design philosophy for the amp:
Is it a poor man's Lamm? Don't know, I doubt I will never hear a Lamm

But how will it sound? I know, it's an aimless question.

 

[jkeny]

That's why it took him over 5 years to bring it to market

Steve, you seem to have misinterpreted the intentions my post or am I misreading your post? I'm quoting what is said on the Lamm website

...The physical experience of a Lamm product is a manifestation of the Einsteinian dictum: Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Have you ever seen the amp John or the transformers. If it were simple Vlad would have had it available years ago

Again, you seem to think I'm criticising it, for some reason?

 

[jkeny]

But how will it sound? I know, it's an aimless question.

The design appeals for a number of design reasons & attracts me because of the points I outlined.
It has been reviewed & rated very highly!
I can only judge the sound when I build it but I have high hopes.

 

[dallasjustice]

These measurements are irrelevant to the folks that like the amp in their system.

One would need to first prove that there's a universal preference for this amp over all other amps which demonstrate "better" measurements before one could prove that the measurements don't matter for everyone.

 

[Steve Williams]

The design appeals for a number of design reasons & attracts me because of the points I outlined.
It has been reviewed & rated very highly!
I can only judge the sound when I build it but I have high hopes.

Well John I for one would want to be first to A/B the two amps in my system. Perhaps the circuitry is simple but I also know how long it took Vlad to get it right and bring it to market. This represents the culmination of everything Vlad knew putting it in his Signature series

 

[jkeny]

Well John I for one would want to be first to A/B the two amps in my system. Perhaps the circuitry is simple but I also know how long it took Vlad to get it right and bring it to market. This represents the culmination of everything Vlad knew putting it in his Signature series

Steve, you seem to be taking a defensive position to my posts & I don't understand where it's coming from.
If you believe I'm demeaning the Lamm because I mention another amplifier which is of a very simple design, I'm afraid you have taken me up wrong.
I believe the Susan Parker amp is a brilliant & unique concept. I have no idea if it sounds as good as the Lamm but I appreciate such elegant approaches.
My reason for mentioning it was to draw attention to the phase distortion aspects of amplifiers & their measurements. I don't believe this is usually covered in amplifier measurements. I was hoping it might cast some light on the missing measurement for the Lamm's "magical sound"?

 

[Groucho]

power consumption

typically 400 watts @ rated output @ 16 (8, 4) ohms and at idle.

!!!!

 

[FrantzM]

power consumption

typically 400 watts @ rated output @ 16 (8, 4) ohms and at idle.

!!!!

!!!! + 1

 

[microstrip]

Looking at the philosophy behind the Lamm amp - make everything as simple as possible (...)

John,

Although I never listened to Lamm's, I have been following this brand since long. IMHO, the philosophy behind the Lamm is not making everything as simple as possible. On the contrary, his simple circuits need elaborated power supplies, transformers and critical components. Again IMHO it seems me almost the opposite of circuit you are considering.