The meaning of measurements

[jkeny]

John,

Although I never listened to Lamm's, I have been following this brand since long. IMHO, the philosophy behind the Lamm is not making everything as simple as possible. On the contrary, his simple circuits need elaborated power supplies, transformers and critical components. Again IMHO it seems me almost the opposite of circuit you are considering.

Maybe so? As I said I quoted that piece about the Einsteinian principle from the Lamm website - they're not my words.
As I also said, the reason I mentioned the Zeus amp was to highlight the focus on phase distortion in amplifiers
Seem my posts have been taken up the wrong way?

 

[microstrip]

power consumption

typically 400 watts @ rated output @ 16 (8, 4) ohms and at idle.
!!!!

This only means that the amplifier efficiency is low and, as a consequence, the power consumption is approximately the same at idle and at full power. Why is it !!!!?

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, you seem to be taking a defensive position to my posts & I don't understand where it's coming from.
If you believe I'm demeaning the Lamm because I mention another amplifier which is of a very simple design, I'm afraid you have taken me up wrong.
I believe the Susan Parker amp is a brilliant & unique concept. I have no idea if it sounds as good as the Lamm but I appreciate such elegant approaches.
My reason for mentioning it was to draw attention to the phase distortion aspects of amplifiers & their measurements. I don't believe this is usually covered in amplifier measurements. I was hoping it might cast some light on the missing measurement for the Lamm's "magical sound"?

John

quite the opposite. If you build a clone of the ML3 all I was saying is I have an ML3 and I would be happy to a/b the 2 amps for everyone

 

[mep]

Building a clone would infer that you could buy all of the parts of the amp. I have no idea who is winding Vlad's output transformers, but I doubt anyone can buy a pair of them. Part of the secret sauce so to speak is the output transformers he is using which are very high quality.

 

[Steve williams]

!!!!

!!!! + 1

you guys crack me up. Is this your secret handshake

 

[jkeny]

John

quite the opposite. If you build a clone of the ML3 all I was saying is I have an ML3 and I would be happy to a/b the 2 amps for everyone

OK, I misinterpreted the tone of your posts
It wouldn't be a clone of the ML3 as I don't know the circuit Vlad uses & I wouldn't be interested in copying it anyway.
Indeed the output transformers are a determiner of the sound but there are some great custom audio transformer makers in the US, Dave Slagle in NY for one & Bud Purvine also - I'm sure they could design a custom transformer of the highest standard.

 

[Steve williams]

Building a clone would infer that you could buy all of the parts of the amp. I have no idea who is winding Vlad's output transformers, but I doubt anyone can buy a pair of them. Part of the secret sauce so to speak is the output transformers he is using which are very high quality.

There are 4 input and 2 output transformers on each side. Total of 12

 

[JackD201]

HV, Micro

Obviously you need listening tests to create a perceptual model. He did that when he was still in Russia. If you read my posts I did say that he can correlate his data to the point of predictability but I can't, so I listen. I do (and all of you too especially the vinyl guys!) measure things that are within our own control.

My central point is that Vlad or any other engineer that develops products in commercial quantities rely heavily on measurements for both voicing and especially quality control. I do not think that they are necessarily measuring anything different. My suspicion is that they just have a better understanding of how the different variables interact. What they do to achieve the predetermined goals is what they keep proprietary. 47 labs erases all values of their parts for example. I like this example because the simple Gaincard has had the DIY community struggling for years to reverse engineer it.

As an analogy, in photography the user can control the amount of light that can come in to the film or sensor in two ways, the size of the aperture or the time of exposure. You can also manipulate the sensitivity of sensor or in case of film choose film with different sensitivity. An experienced photographer will set up his parameters quickly predicting what he needs to do to get close to his intended shot. If it isn't perfect he can pull out the spectrograph screen and use that to make finer adjustments. The film guy will bracket above or below and hope one of the shots is Goldilocks. The analogy is applicable to SRA/VTF or even speaker positioning. The more experienced will eventually be able to do these very well by ear while those that haven't practiced a lot will probably be more reliant on chance as they develop their said experience. Problem is, if they don't note what they did if and when things "locked in" just getting back to it might be impossible.

 

[NorthStar]

I would say, given the state of two channel audio, that no, measurements do not correlate with what sounds good to you, they simply compare the input and output correlation or lack thereof. Correlating measurements to what sounds good to you is as big a myth as correlating two channel stereo to the live event.

Of course, things like frequency response are obvious but graphs are looking at outputs vs inputs, not trying to tell you what sounds good, just what is the accuracy fo the system to its input.

Ok Tom, thanks for your honest answer. :b ...I'll try to remember it too.

* I wonder how many more people think similarly...

 

[Bruce B]

The same things were said about the Playback Designs. It measured pretty poorly, but a lot of people think it's the best sounding digital out there.

I have great respect for Wilson, Harman and others that use both measurements and listening tests before they bring a product to market. I know a couple of manufacturers that have never listened to their product and only relied on their measurement equipment. I've tried their products and they left me wanting.

I remember when Vlad first started out years ago and there were definitely a few missteps. Through good practices and a solid following, Lamm is one of the top brands made today. Everytime I hear Lamm in a system, it does things no other equipment can begin to do.

 

[Steve williams]

As I said, for any members in the South Orange county area who want to hear this very special amp/preamp I would be happy to have you come by for a listen

 

[rockitman]

As I said, for any members in the South Orange county area who want to hear this very special amp/preamp I would be happy to have you come by for a listen

are you running the new ML 3's just reviewed ? I wish you were into phono, then you would be able to describe the Reference Lamm phono stage. It is one I am considering, but will be unlikely getting since there are no home demo's available.

 

[microstrip]

OK, I misinterpreted the tone of your posts
It wouldn't be a clone of the ML3 as I don't know the circuit Vlad uses & I wouldn't be interested in copying it anyway.
Indeed the output transformers are a determiner of the sound but there are some great custom audio transformer makers in the US, Dave Slagle in NY for one & Bud Purvine also - I'm sure they could design a custom transformer of the highest standard.

John,
No need to go to the other side of the Atlantic to get good custom transformers. You can get them close to you - Sowter Transformers makes transformers for some of the best preamplifiers and amplifiers in world http://www.sowter.co.uk/

 

[microstrip]

As I said, for any members in the South Orange county area who want to hear this very special amp/preamp I would be happy to have you come by for a listen

Steve,
Do you know of anyone having tried the ML3 with the Alexia?

 

[jkeny]

John,
No need to go to the other side of the Atlantic to get good custom transformers. You can get them close to you - Sowter Transformers makes transformers for some of the best preamplifiers and amplifiers in world http://www.sowter.co.uk/

I know - that's where I'm buying the transformers for the Zeus - she has commissioned Sowter to produce transformers for her according to her spec:
1.9840 Zeus Power Amplifier by Susan Parker Output Transformer(CLASSIC AMPS)£190.98
2.8160 Zeus Power Amplifier by Susan Parker Input Transformer(CLASSIC AMPS)£100.21

Becomes costly when 2 of each plus carriage + VAT is totalled - best part of €1,000

The interesting thing is ordinary toroid Power transformers can be used as proof of concept & 70-80% of the final sound before investing in the Sowter purchase.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,
Do you know of anyone having tried the ML3 with the Alexia?

According to Vlad the ML3 will not effectively drive the Alexia

 

[Steve williams]

are you running the new ML 3's just reviewed ? I wish you were into phono, then you would be able to describe the Reference Lamm phono stage. It is one I am considering, but will be unlikely getting since there are no home demo's available.

of course I am. There is only one version of his Signature series. From what I am told the phono stage is truly remarkable

Strapper 211 who is a member here has the LL1 Signature and LP1 and has now got the ML3 for evaluation and from what he tells me he will be buying the ML3, His blog at Audiogon describes his experience with the LP1 Signature

 

[Steve williams]

are you running the new ML 3's just reviewed ? I wish you were into phono, then you would be able to describe the Reference Lamm phono stage. It is one I am considering, but will be unlikely getting since there are no home demo's available.

you're in New York

Call Vlad and go to Brooklyn to hear the LP1

 

[Steve williams]

you're in New York

Call Vlad and go to Brooklyn to hear the LP1

Better yet, call him and see if he will send you a loaner

 

[Steve williams]

you're in New York

Call Vlad and go to Brooklyn to hear the LP1

Better yet, call him and see if he will send you a loaner