The Bass is the place!!

[ddk]

So what are the problems with his room?

He keeps the good whisky outside !

The only problem with that is that when we put the people behind a curtain so they can't see what is playing, they prefer application of said equalization to nothing. And they do so by a huge factor. Since we have become so anti-measurement and science here, I won't post it but the data is there contrary to our opinions (see some of the data here http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/target-room-response-and-cinema-x-curve.10/).

We're obviously listening for different things Amir and our level of experience varies, "everybody" is meaningless when expertise and knowledge is required. I don't need a curtain to tell me when a system sounds like crap when when it shouldn't, I can hear it! Otherwise I have no reason to look around and see what's going on with the setup.

david

 

[steve williams]

I don't need a curtain to tell me when a system sounds like crap when when it shouldn't, I can hear it! Otherwise I have no reason to look around and see what's going on with the setup

+1

 

[amirm]

We're obviously listening for different things Amir and our level of experience varies, "everybody" is meaningless when expertise and knowledge is required. I don't need a curtain to tell me when a system sounds like crap when when it shouldn't, I can hear it! Otherwise I have no reason to look around and see what's going on with the setup.

david

I was not part of the study/research David. They used expert/trained listeners in the study. If they can't hear a bass boom, heaven help us all!

As to hearing it, that is the purpose of the curtain. That is, to make sure only your ears are in play, and not the other senses which prejudice the overall outcome.

I have done testing of just turning on one filter in bass and hearing the AB effect. It does no harm and can significantly improve bass reproduction. Indeed it is precise experimentation like this that teaches one the benefit of EQ. Without it, you won't develop a proper sense for what it can or cannot do. Hearing one system with EQ then hearing a completely different system without and judging the EQ on that basis, makes no sense to me. Unless of course that Whisky comes into the equation.

 

[ddk]

I was not part of the study/research David. They used expert/trained listeners in the study. If they can't hear a bass boom, heaven help us all!

It was a generic "we" not aimed at you, more H/T sound effects bass vs bass quality in 2 channel music reproduction. Given the number of horrible sound sounding equipment out on the market, specially the ones mentioned in that study they can't hear anything!

As to hearing it, that is the purpose of the curtain. That is, to make sure only your ears are in play, and not the other senses which prejudice the overall outcome.

I have done testing of just turning on one filter in bass and hearing the AB effect. It does no harm and can significantly improve bass reproduction. Indeed it is precise experimentation like this that teaches one the benefit of EQ. Without it, you won't develop a proper sense for what it can or cannot do. Hearing one system with EQ then hearing a completely different system without and judging the EQ on that basis, makes no sense to me. Unless of course that Whisky comes into the equation.

Let's get on thing straight, leave the whisky alone! That's sacred ground !

I was talking about the same system with & without DEQ not separate ones. By no means was this a precise experiment, conditions and parameters were set to prove a biased hypothesis in order to sell some crap boxes, that's all. Speaking for myself, I rarely if ever set foot in a movie theater these days because of THX DEQ nor attend a venue where I know they're using DEQ in their sound reinforcement. Unfortunately no amount of whisky will fix those horrors… even I walk in there blind folded!

david

 

[amirm]

What car do you drive David?

 

[ddk]

What car do you drive David?

What can be purchased and serviced in Cedar City, Jeep Grand Cherokee and an Audi RS6 that can't be serviced here, why?

david

 

[bonzo75]

What can be purchased and serviced in Cedar City, Jeep Grand Cherokee and an Audi RS6 that can't be serviced here, why?

david

Is the recommendation to drive this blind as well

 

[microstrip]

(...) The only problem with that is that when we put the people behind a curtain so they can't see what is playing, they prefer application of said equalization to nothing. And they do so by a huge factor. Since we have become so anti-measurement and science here, I won't post it but the data is there contrary to our opinions (see some of the data here http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/target-room-response-and-cinema-x-curve.10/).

I think most people here are not anti-measurement, they are simply against the use of oversimplified measurements and oversimplified application of science to check and grade subjective performance.

Stereo sound reproduction is full of compromises, most of the time the optimization of a system needs approaches that have not been studied scientifically.

And no, the data is not contrary to the opinions, simply it was taken in conditions different from what we are debating and sometimes it does not apply. Besides its conclusions are statistical and should be considered as such.

For the nth time, I do not understand why people systematically try to mix the needs of home theater bass with the reproduction of bass in stereo systems!

 

[ddk]

Is the recommendation to drive this blind as well

david

 

[amirm]

What can be purchased and serviced in Cedar City, Jeep Grand Cherokee and an Audi RS6 that can't be serviced here, why?

david

What a buzzkill. I thought for sure you would say the only real cars were the ones that would run on steam!

BTW the stereo in your RS6 uses DSP as do all modern luxury cars. Do you drive with it shut off?

 

[amirm]

I think most people here are not anti-measurement, they are simply against the use of oversimplified measurements and oversimplified application of science to check and grade subjective performance.

Stereo sound reproduction is full of compromises, most of the time the optimization of a system needs approaches that have not been studied scientifically.

And no, the data is not contrary to the opinions, simply it was taken in conditions different from what we are debating and sometimes it does not apply. Besides its conclusions are statistical and should be considered as such.

What you quoted from me was the results of a listening test, not measurement.

As to what is not studied, seems like we have no use for the ones that are studied anyway. So why worry about what is not yet done?

For the nth time, I do not understand why people systematically try to mix the needs of home theater bass with the reproduction of bass in stereo systems!

What are those needs?

 

[amirm]

I was talking about the same system with & without DEQ not separate ones. By no means was this a precise experiment, conditions and parameters were set to prove a biased hypothesis in order to sell some crap boxes, that's all. Speaking for myself, I rarely if ever set foot in a movie theater these days because of THX DEQ nor attend a venue where I know they're using DEQ in their sound reinforcement. Unfortunately no amount of whisky will fix those horrors… even I walk in there blind folded!

david

What is going in commercial cinemas is a crime committed by Dolby and its certification requirement. Its origins were a single faulty test decades back, ignoring everything we know about science of acoustics and proper application of equalization. I wrote a long article/paper on it going through the issues point by point: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/validity-of-x-curve-for-cinema-sound.204/

There is work at SMPTE and elsewhere to make it better but a lot of diehards of "old is better" are clinging to pseudoscience nonsense that may stop it from remotely getting close to the much better application we get in the home.

BTW, if that poor impression has remotely anything to do with your comments in general about digital EQ, then you would be damning a turntable because someone advocates getting rocks out of the garden to balance the arm!

 

[ddk]

What a buzzkill. I thought for sure you would say the only real cars were the ones that would run on steam!

BTW the stereo in your RS6 uses DSP as do all modern luxury cars. Do you drive with it shut off?

I do! Its whatever system I was forced to buy with the GPS option, its horrible and I can't listen to music on it. Anyway when I'm driving all I care to hear is the radar detector!

david

 

[steve williams]

I do! Its whatever system I was forced to buy with the GPS option, its horrible and I can't listen to music on it. Anyway when I'm driving all I care to hear is the radar detector!

david

Having driven with you when I visited I can vouch for that's what you did. Not once was there ever a radio playing and when we were hitting speeds of 105-110 it wasn't the radar detector I was hearing but rather my heart pounding. No buzzkill there. Just open highway fun

 

[amirm]

I do! Its whatever system I was forced to buy with the GPS option, its horrible and I can't listen to music on it. Anyway when I'm driving all I care to hear is the radar detector!

david

Well, you must enjoy music a heck of a lot less than I do. My favorite music brings enjoyment to me even if it is on a clock radio.

Take that jab, buster!

 

[ddk]

What is going in commercial cinemas is a crime committed by Dolby and its certification requirement. Its origins were a single faulty test decades back, ignoring everything we know about science of acoustics and proper application of equalization. I wrote a long article/paper on it going through the issues point by point: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/validity-of-x-curve-for-cinema-sound.204/

There is work at SMPTE and elsewhere to make it better but a lot of diehards of "old is better" are clinging to pseudoscience nonsense that may stop it from remotely getting close to the much better application we get in the home.

BTW, if that poor impression has remotely anything to do with your comments in general about digital EQ, then you would be damning a turntable because someone advocates getting rocks out of the garden to balance the arm!

What's in your system that negates my impressions? I looked around and didn't find anything to do with your system just what your daughter's, please share.

Well, you must enjoy music a heck of a lot less than I do. My favorite music brings enjoyment to me even if it is on a clock radio.

Take that jab, buster!

If I had a choice, I'll take the clock radio any day! I just like music too much to screw it up with DSP...

david

 

[PeterA]

That is about 6,700 cubic feet. To have the room be considered acoustically "large," i.e not have room modes above 20 Hz, you would need a room that is 300,000 cubic feet! Your room's volume is just 2% of this.

What people think of home audio rooms is not of concern. Soundwaves are not dealing with people.


Well, I am sure every visitor praised your room before that too . "Flat" is an objective term Mike. No room that I know measures "flat." In room response +-3 db would be considered excellent. If you have a measurement of the room without smoothing then we can see if your room is flat. Until then, I have my doubts .

Amir, is this whole thread not discussing bass quality in home audio rooms? Do any of us listen in a 300,000 cubic foot room? And do those acoustically "large" rooms have the type of audio systems that we own in them? Is Harmon designing speakers for such rooms? I do not understand the relevance of your statement for this WBF audience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Amir, is this whole thread not discussing bass quality in home audio rooms? Do any of us listen in a 300,000 cubic foot room? And do those acoustically "large" rooms have the type of audio systems that we own in them? Is Harmon designing speakers for such rooms? I do not understand the relevance of your statement for this WBF audience.

here is Amir's kinda room....

not a room where domestic speaker systems can work. even when you throw $1m at it.

 

[NorthStar]

Yeah ok ? , that, is much better looking rig and place than my own...the bass must be phenomenally awesome. ...And all those wires!
_________

I'm glad that @ least two great music selections were mentioned, one by Mike, here, and with great bass...drummer Mickey Hart. Another guy I like is Michael Stearns (ambiant musician with bass synthesizer on some recordings).

* And Chuck's graph measurement of the bass in his room is simply amazing! He's got the goods too, with six subs and well positioned and properly EQued.
This is one of the flattest bass I've ever seen...from 7Hz to 100Hz (10Hz to 75Hz +/-2dB)...just wow! ...For Music listening, and he's got the HK curve for Movies.

Davey, The Bass is the Place - Chuck's place. :b

 

[sbo6]

I've been in Mike's room, bass bloat isn't a problem, at least its not noticeable. I don't see any real purpose for measurements in his room or mine, we can both hear what's right and/or wrong in our systems from room effects and since as you mentioned there's not much that can be done without major surgery.

Why would your rooms be any different than any room in terms of any "purpose" to measure? How many great sounding studios do you think they build by ear these days? I recall Mike said he recently moved his chair 4' and it sounds much better. Do you not think measuring would have caught/shown that in terms of freq, impulse, decay etc. and possibly saved time? Now, whether you believe you need to measure is another story but it can't hurt to see what's going on in your space. What you chose to do about it is an entirely different story.