What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?

[DaveC]

It is a guaranteed outcome. As I explained at the outset, when you change things, you listen far more tentative and now hear things you did not before. Ergo, the change made a difference whether it did or not. And surprisingly, whether you expected it or not. You can even be dead set against the change making an improvement but the outcome will be exactly that.

There is a reason every tweak out there, no matter how implausible, how impossible, how unlikely, has advocates that swear by them. And go as far as killing their fellow audiophile if they don't believe.

The problem is that when we take the knowledge of whether a change is or is not made away, those improvements disappear like a "fart in the wind." These massive differences that even one's wife can hear while walking the dog outside , now become impossible to hear even in one's own system, and one's own music.

As you, I would be rich if I could get a dollar for every time I heard an improvement yet discovered I had not yet made the change I was investigating! And happen the same as testing others.

It is a side of science we are not familiar with but it is so responsible for our improper evaluation. When the science says something is impossible, and you can't hear the change reliably when you only use your ears, the only logical conclusion is that the device is not effective. Searching for other rules of universe yet to be discovered as the explanation that it actually did, is so illogical. But expected given lack of knowledge of our our perception works.

Nah, my testing doesn't work that way, sorry.

And there's the fact my customers describe my cables in the same way, pretty sure they don't consult with one another.

It is true that ignorance is the hallmark of the human experience, but realizing that is half the battle.

 

[amirm]

Nah, my testing doesn't work that way, sorry.

And there's the fact my customers describe my cables in the same way, pretty sure they don't consult with one another.

Then run the test as I suggested dave and post the picture of the scorecard.

BTW, a million anecdotal reports don't make them facts. Or else would would be thinking aliens have landed on earth already. BTW, I believe that is true and that is where I learned much of what I know about audio. But I don't want to admit that in public! \

It is true that ignorance is the hallmark of the human experience, but realizing that is half the battle.

That's right. So go and evaluate your listening experiences for once, blind. That is when the realization will set in. I guarantee it.

Of course that would be taking the red pill. Life is much happier in the matrix with blue pill if knowing the reality is not a concern.

 

[thedudeabides]

What I am not going to do is listen to anecdotal reports on forum that goes against the most basics of how to conduct such tests properly.

This again begs the question as to why you continue to post on this forum. To the best of my knowledge, your "receptive audience" (folks that agree with you) is likely very small if it exists at all. This is based on the lack of support for your posts that I've seen over many threads. Am I missing something?

 

[DaveC]

Then run the test as I suggested dave and post the picture of the scorecard.

BTW, a million anecdotal reports don't make them facts. Or else would would be thinking aliens have landed on earth already. BTW, I believe that is true and that is where I learned much of what I know about audio. But I don't want to admit that in public! \


That's right. So go and evaluate your listening experiences for once, blind. That is when the realization will set in. I guarantee it.

Of course that would be taking the red pill. Life is much happier in the matrix with blue pill if knowing the reality is not a concern.

You assume I haven't, not true. I have done somuchf**king testing over decades at this point, and they don't agree with your comments at all. Sometimes I can't hear any difference at all, even when I expect to.

Anecdotal evidence isn't anecdotal anymore after it passes a certain threshold, while I haven't done the math and don't care to in order to prove my point to flat-earthers, it's reached statistical significance long ago. And I aced statistics in engineering school...

I'll maintain you're the one who will have their obscurations lifted if you're willing.

I don't feel your test is passable by anyone other than folks with extraordinary abilities and have already explained that, so no thank you, I will pass.

 

[RogerD]

I learn new things all the time. There are a ton of experts I follow in the field and a day does not go by that I do not pick up something new, read a new paper, research, etc. What I am not going to do is listen to anecdotal reports on forum that goes against the most basics of how to conduct such tests properly. And further, goes against the accepted science and engineering in every fora you look at from ASA to IEEE and AES. You all may be the brighter bulb than everyone who does this work/research professionally. But I put my money on them and my own experience/knowledge of testing countless audiophiles and myself front and center if you don't mind.

Maybe you tell me that doctors routinely take patient experiments with supplements, etc. as the same as drug trials and proceed to throw out their training. I don't know. What I do know is that I asked my doctor if he would put me in touch with some researchers at the local university to test the limits of double blind testing. He just about threw me out of his office. He told me that everything that he is about is conducting such tests blind and that he would have nothing to do with this! He told me to go and do my own research to find such people!

What made Einstein a great scientist is he had common sense,you have none Sir.

 

[jeff1225]

This again begs the question as to why you continue to post on this forum. To the best of my knowledge, your "receptive audience" (folks that agree with you) is likely very small if it exists at all. This is based on the lack of support for your posts that I've seen over many threads. Am I missing something?

You are missing nothing. He posts to antagonize all of the members here and he derails every thread.

 

[BlueFox]

This whole issue would be moot if we just used Radio Shack ICs, and stock power cords. Who could ever think that something better might exist.

 

[Robh3606]

This whole issue would be moot if we just used Radio Shack ICs, and stock power cords.

You mean like we did back in the 80's??

Rob

 

[amirm]

What made Einstein a great scientist is he had common sense,you have none Sir.

I think you got him backwards:

 

[amirm]

You assume I haven't, not true. I have done somuchf**king testing over decades at this point, and they don't agree with your comments at all. Sometimes I can't hear any difference at all, even when I expect to.

That's pretty consistent with what I have been saying too. Bottom line is this: you have to only rely on your ears and nothing else. Any test which goes against the grain of audio science/engineering better darn well be the best test you can conduct. Or else you are just confusing yourself.

Anecdotal evidence isn't anecdotal anymore after it passes a certain threshold, while I haven't done the math and don't care to in order to prove my point to flat-earthers, it's reached statistical significance long ago. And I aced statistics in engineering school...

They don't teach the right way to do audio testing at school or we wouldn't be having this discussion. You learn that by experience and exposure. An example I have given before.

At Microsoft I led the acquisition of Pacific Microsonics (inventors of HDCD). They gave me a demo disc that had HDCD vs not files on it. I did a sighted comparison and it was very clearly that the HDCD versions were superior. More air. Less "digital." More ambience. You name it, it was superior. We acquire the company and I am chatting with one of their test engineers and he asks me, "you didn't really believe that stuff about HDCD sounding better, did you?" I said of course I did as I had done my own testing and it was obvious. He hands me his headphones right then and then and asks me to listen to the same test CD again. He plays one track and I declare with absolute conviction it was HDCD and then the next track he played, was not (or some order like that -- I forget now ).

I take the headphones off and angrily asks him why he can't tell the difference that is obvious. The son of you know what says, "I played the same track twice!" I put my tail between my legs and left.

Good thing we bought the company (for millions of dollars) for the speaker correction technology that Keith Johnson had invented and not for HDCD. Or I would have just failed in my job to spend the company money on things with value.

You have experiences like this, let's hear it. Until then bragging about how many improper tests you have done doesn't amount to anything. You need to conduct tests where the answer can be verified to be correct as in above. The notion that you give tests to yourself and accept the answers yourself as true or not is the fastest way to be confused in audio.

I don't feel your test is passable by anyone other than folks with extraordinary abilities and have already explained that, so no thank you, I will pass.

Well then there is no night and day difference there as clearly no one fails such a test with two speakers for example.

 

[amirm]

This whole issue would be moot if we just used Radio Shack ICs, and stock power cords. Who could ever think that something better might exist.

When I pay $50,000 for an amplifier, there better darn well come with the best cable they can put in the box....

 

[still-one]

When I pay $50,000 for an amplifier, there better darn well come with the best cable they can put in the box....

Why would anyone expect them to go out and try +100 different cables to see which sounds best to them? I will pick the one that sounds best to me.

 

[NorthStar]

This whole issue would be moot if we just used Radio Shack ICs, and stock power cords. Who could ever think that something better might exist.

You mean like we did back in the 80's??
Rob

They've been around for a very long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadioShack

Subwoofers were not the menu du jour back in the 60s and 70s. We did not have an audio vocabulary with emphasis on "bass becoming robust when using an after market AC power cord". I don't want to go back; today is much more fun, much more advanced, the music sounds so much better, and the high end is just more "high end".
These are great times to be alive and loving. Radio Shack was a fun era, it was part of many's audio needs. Our needs just got "higher", tighter, solider, smarter, robuster. :b

It's a beautiful world wherever our music is playing and when. We love when we play... ?

Because ? matters

 

[Mike Lavigne]

When I pay $50,000 for an amplifier, there better darn well come with the best cable they can put in the box....

did the ($50k+) amps your business bought (or offered for demo) from Harmon come with a power cord they claimed was 'the best cable they can put in a box'?

were you outraged that they did not do that and let them know how you felt?

and how did they react?

 

[Nightlord]

did the amps your business bought (or offered for demo) from Harmon come with a power cord they claimed was 'the best cable they can put in a box'?

were you outraged that they did not do that and let them know how you felt?

If someone puts a huge effort into making the best amp they can, and they don't spend a cent on making the power cable any better, there's your proof that the amp designer can't extract any more performance from it due to the cable - otherwise it would have had a different cable. And it seems close to every amp designer in the world agrees on it too....

 

[thedudeabides]

You need to conduct tests where the answer can be verified to be correct as in above.

Why? Correct according to who?

 

[thedudeabides]

there's your proof that the amp designer can't extract any more performance from it due to the cable - otherwise it would have had a different cable./QUOTE]

One iteration of the "if / then" scenario assumption.

The other side but this doesn't fit your narrative / bias. Hi end amp manufacturers assume that folks buying their products will likely use an "after the market" power cord.

 

[Nightlord]

Why? Correct according to who?

Reality.

 

[NorthStar]

When we buy amps, subwoofers, turntables, etc., they usually come with an AC power cable in the box. I don't remember not seeing one included with an audio component...any audio component.

Question: I've never bought a brand new audio component that was costing more than $100,000 - do they all come with an AC power cord like the less expensive ones?
_______

This is WBF, and some audio gear that cost less than $500 come with an AC power cord, a pair of RCA stereo interconnects, a remote control, batteries, and an instruction manual.
My Rotel CD players came with quality copper RCA stereo interconnects, but they cost more...$1,500 and $900.
My Oppo 103 ($500) even included a quality HDMI cable, a test disc, an ethernet extension, illuminated remote, and a shopping bag.

Now, $10,000 - $50,000 - $250,000 for power amps, preamps, .... do they include a quality AC power cord in the box?

 

[still-one]

If someone puts a huge effort into making the best amp they can, and they don't spend a cent on making the power cable any better, there's your proof that the amp designer can't extract any more performance from it due to the cable - otherwise it would have had a different cable. And it seems close to every amp designer in the world agrees on it too....

From your post it is apparent do not understand the audio market business model at the manufacture or retail level.