Are the $19,500 Berkeley and $35,000 dCS DACs really worth big bucks?
- Thread starter Don C
- Start date
My circle is the entire audio industry not the few audiophiles you know. As I mentioned at the outset, I hear and see hundreds of systems per year, more than just about any member here. Here is just a sampling of my pictures and notes about the above systems that I have covered:
Metronome:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...nome-technologie-esprit-magico-s1-mk-ii.1237/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...hilharmonia-m2tech-esprit-audio-sbooster.844/
TotalDAC:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ces-2017-devore-fidelity.1234/#post-31483
Aries Cerat. I consider Joshua a professional colleague and friend and had a wonderful time listening to his system at CES.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19566-CES-2016-Aries-Cerat-and-Believe-High-Fidelity
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/reviewers-music.1373/page-4#post-37026
Audio Note:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/axpona-2017-audio-note.1570/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...o-audolici-michael-green-audio-roomtune.1545/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/axpona-audio-note.407/
Zanden: I always have fun chatting with Eric Pheils
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ces-2017-zanden.1169/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rmaf-2016-zanden-audio-tidal-speakers.847/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/axpona-zanden-audio-verity-audio.360/
La Scala:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...nnuos-rethm-bhaava-linneberg-anticables.1543/
Jadis:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...rntable-b-w-speakers-apple-silnote-audio.453/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...nature-chord-jadis-magnan-cables-spendor.457/
Metronome:
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...nome-technologie-esprit-magico-s1-mk-ii.1237/
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...hilharmonia-m2tech-esprit-audio-sbooster.844/
I know I have covered Allnic many times but can't find the link. But I hope you know the dubious distinction their D-5000 DAC has as the worst DAC JA had ever measured: https://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-d-5000-dht-da-processor-measurements
"The Allnic D-5000 DHT has the dubious honor of being the worst-measuring digital component I have encountered, exceeding even the Lector Strumenti Digitube S-192 D/A processor that Art Dudley reviewed last June. I must admit that, unless something broke and affected the left channel's behavior while the review sample was in transit from AD's place to my lab in Brooklyn, I am baffled by this product's measured performance."
So let's hope no one is speaking of that Tube DAC to make their case.
That aside, as you see above I hear these DACs amply. In no case have they impressed me to think that solid state DACs cause ear fatigue or whatever else Morricab says ails them.
I honestly can't figure out how someone with a straight face can say tube DACs have any significant market share. Take the three DACs that are the title of this thread. All solid state.
And you have to stop hiding in the bushes and throw rocks at me in different threads. If you think solid state DACs produce fatiguing sound, let's hear that so that we know what we are dealing with.
Same to you Steve.
Exaggeration offends the truth and casts a shadow on one’s judgement
morricab my friend,
This is a measured response to your spurious assertions and generalisations about valve versus solid state equipment and digital playback more specifically.
You have incidentally made some grossly inaccurate overstatements which offend the experienced and mature audiophile. It is a typical Trumpist oversimplistic, unsophisticated audio world-view of an idealog, not of an open, untainted and objective mind\ear.
I have valve (in the micro amplification domains) and solid state components. In the last two years I had been critically auditioning multiple DACS and CD\SACD\DACs of all ‘orientations and persuations’ with an undistorted and uncorrupted ear. The journey was long and infested with hurdles and monsters but I had to reach "Ithaca". And for me, "Ithaca" turned out to be the T+A PDP3000HV. I posted a synoptic overview of my journey not long ago, but I did not condemn any technology, topology or implementation. Given the complexity of the factors affecting the final sound quality, only an audio fundamentalist will make sweeping generalisations with such certitude. I had jettisoned every preconception of the above variables but I allocated a "not-to-be-scorned-at" budget. The cheap can often become very expensive in the long run (my father’s aphorism) and a crow can not be turned into a nightingale (a greek \turkish saying), although sound is in the ear of the beholder!
You have been rightly admonished by the more sagacious audiophiles in this thread who, no doubt, have had experience with both valve and solid state components. You, either intentionally or inadvertently, offended our collective experiences, acquired knowledge and judgements. It is pointless being diplomatic and politically correct: this is audio prejudice! By all means, be self-indulgent and wallow in your preferences and biases, and exalt your perceived merits of ANY component, technology, topology, etc. but DON’T condemn and berate in such a blatant and dogmatic way. It is precisely such behaviour that warrants unequivocally blind testing. In fact, any extravagant, extreme contention or claim should be put to the blind eye, open mind\ear test.
You may be an experienced audiophile\reviewer but you seem to be locked into an ideology which (like any ideology) has possesed you. The reactions to your post should have been anticipated. You were not just uttering a soliloquy with an audience of one....youself! We are not fledgelings in this hobby.
Finally, since we both share a common passion for recording, allow me to make a suggestion. Record something from an analogue source and compare the parametres that concern you (tonal\timbral aspects for example) and tell me if good solid state is unlistenable. There are two requirements: an undistorted, uncorrupted ear\mind and to name the equipment used. Further still, play the analogue recording on both solid state and valve players, announce the equipment concerned and let us all know how they compared to the analogue. This, by the way, was my litmus test. No presumption, no assumption, no expectation bias. You can then tell us how "unlistenable" solid state was. We all need to be more prudent.
Be well my friend.
I listen always learning. Cheers, Kostas.
morricab my friend,
This is a measured response to your spurious assertions and generalisations about valve versus solid state equipment and digital playback more specifically.
You have incidentally made some grossly inaccurate overstatements which offend the experienced and mature audiophile. It is a typical Trumpist oversimplistic, unsophisticated audio world-view of an idealog, not of an open, untainted and objective mind\ear.
I have valve (in the micro amplification domains) and solid state components. In the last two years I had been critically auditioning multiple DACS and CD\SACD\DACs of all ‘orientations and persuations’ with an undistorted and uncorrupted ear. The journey was long and infested with hurdles and monsters but I had to reach "Ithaca". And for me, "Ithaca" turned out to be the T+A PDP3000HV. I posted a synoptic overview of my journey not long ago, but I did not condemn any technology, topology or implementation. Given the complexity of the factors affecting the final sound quality, only an audio fundamentalist will make sweeping generalisations with such certitude. I had jettisoned every preconception of the above variables but I allocated a "not-to-be-scorned-at" budget. The cheap can often become very expensive in the long run (my father’s aphorism) and a crow can not be turned into a nightingale (a greek \turkish saying), although sound is in the ear of the beholder!
You have been rightly admonished by the more sagacious audiophiles in this thread who, no doubt, have had experience with both valve and solid state components. You, either intentionally or inadvertently, offended our collective experiences, acquired knowledge and judgements. It is pointless being diplomatic and politically correct: this is audio prejudice! By all means, be self-indulgent and wallow in your preferences and biases, and exalt your perceived merits of ANY component, technology, topology, etc. but DON’T condemn and berate in such a blatant and dogmatic way. It is precisely such behaviour that warrants unequivocally blind testing. In fact, any extravagant, extreme contention or claim should be put to the blind eye, open mind\ear test.
You may be an experienced audiophile\reviewer but you seem to be locked into an ideology which (like any ideology) has possesed you. The reactions to your post should have been anticipated. You were not just uttering a soliloquy with an audience of one....youself! We are not fledgelings in this hobby.
Finally, since we both share a common passion for recording, allow me to make a suggestion. Record something from an analogue source and compare the parametres that concern you (tonal\timbral aspects for example) and tell me if good solid state is unlistenable. There are two requirements: an undistorted, uncorrupted ear\mind and to name the equipment used. Further still, play the analogue recording on both solid state and valve players, announce the equipment concerned and let us all know how they compared to the analogue. This, by the way, was my litmus test. No presumption, no assumption, no expectation bias. You can then tell us how "unlistenable" solid state was. We all need to be more prudent.
Be well my friend.
I listen always learning. Cheers, Kostas.
Last edited:
Customary Amir deflection. Morricab didn't say he thought they produced fatiguing sound, he mentioned that fatigue was what he felt after listening to them. Huge difference - one opinion, the other, experience.
Morricab, is this your position? That the equipment may not produce fatiguing sound but you feel they do after you listen to them? It sure sounded like you were saying it is the design of equipment that does that. Here is one of your posts:
Is it the equipment or your perception?
Psychology 101 - feeling (fatigue is such) is not a perception.
Equipment does not produce sound (which is a percept) rather it produces vibrations in the air. Brains and ears working in tandem create sound based on the vibrational input at the eardrums and other cognitive input (like for example whether there's a warm glow from tubes in sight).
If your argument starts with "customary Amir deflection", and then goes nitpicking over words/terms, it feels suspicious, that's all.
No, I don't.
But I just cannot see it in this case, no matter how hard I try, really. It was just an innocent use of a term ("fatiguing sound") that I might have used myself.
You see no difference then between holding an opinion about something and having an experience of something?
<afterthought> Strikes me that you most likely do as on this thread you (rightly) point out that hearing something (experience) trumps hypothesizing about something based on past experience. The case in point being Morricab's opinions about dCS's sound based on his experience of earlier models.
<afterthought> Strikes me that you most likely do as on this thread you (rightly) point out that hearing something (experience) trumps hypothesizing about something based on past experience. The case in point being Morricab's opinions about dCS's sound based on his experience of earlier models.
At the risk of prolonging the post-mortem*, I wonder whether some small part of the misunderstanding may have arisen from my use of the word 'deflection'. Seeing as you mentioned 'it was just some innocent...' it stuck me you might have considered my mention of it as some kind of reprimand of Amir. However my use of it was also quite 'innocent' to borrow your own word. Its simply an observation of a very common ego defense mechanism.
* or even turning it into a wake
* or even turning it into a wake
"Why are people discussing analog components friendlier than the people discussing digital components"
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