No prize needed. It is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything more is less.
Tom
How long do cables take to break-in?
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
No prize needed. It is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything more is less.
Tom
Me being the son of an Electrical Engineer that has designed some pretty high tech electronics with crazy specs, plead the 5th.
I have wanted to do some blind cable switching in some systems and see if the owners can tell me what I switched, but then some believe that simply moving a cable changes the sound,so the test would be invalid.
I have wanted to do some blind cable switching in some systems and see if the owners can tell me what I switched, but then some believe that simply moving a cable changes the sound,so the test would be invalid.
In re-reading my post I realized it sounded pretty "rah rah" for a particular crowd and don't want pour fuel on a pointless fire.
This hobby/insanity/obsession is ones own personal journey that for that person the end game is their own and any other opinion to that person is irrelevant.
Some of the arguments/discussions/debates here are silly and I tire after a page or two once I realize no useful information is to be gleaned.
The truth of the matter is at this level I have never heard a bad system, other than my own, just different colours.
This hobby/insanity/obsession is ones own personal journey that for that person the end game is their own and any other opinion to that person is irrelevant.
Some of the arguments/discussions/debates here are silly and I tire after a page or two once I realize no useful information is to be gleaned.
The truth of the matter is at this level I have never heard a bad system, other than my own, just different colours.
Huh. I just read JPS Audio Lab's sends out their cable already burned in. So who's correct: The manufacturer or the end user?
My tone came across wrong in my original post.
The intent was not, "I'm right and your wrong" as seems to get out of control at times.
The intent would also be for my own resolve.
I would love, say to swap out one channel of speaker wire to say even zip cord, to go extreme, and leave the other alone.
This switch would be done by someone other than myself and then listen with the system owner and see what they and myself can hear.
This is more of a curiosity than a crucifixion.
More or less I believe there is an element of everybody is right and everybody is wrong.
The intent was not, "I'm right and your wrong" as seems to get out of control at times.
The intent would also be for my own resolve.
I would love, say to swap out one channel of speaker wire to say even zip cord, to go extreme, and leave the other alone.
This switch would be done by someone other than myself and then listen with the system owner and see what they and myself can hear.
This is more of a curiosity than a crucifixion.
More or less I believe there is an element of everybody is right and everybody is wrong.
I don't engage these kind of people anymore, but there was one guy, Swerd, who accused me directly of being dishonest and he also lied about what I sell in order to make his point. I will refrain from emotional responses as they never help, but I will point out:
1. The vertical scale of the frequency response plot I posted is SPL in dB. Accusing me of trying to cover up the vertical scale in an attempt to mislead people is ridiculous, but then he proceeded to blatantly lie about me so I guess that can be expected, sigh...
2. I don't sell devices to burn-in cables. My website is open to all and to make these claims without actually looking into what I sell is dishonest, a blatant lie, and just as ridiculous as saying I'm trying to mislead people by obscuring the vertical scale in my plot.
Since they are looking at this thread I'd also point out that blatant lies with the intent to harm another are not acceptable. I can't believe the moderator there would allow that kind of behavior, but it seems like it's actually being encouraged on audioholics.
I don't think it's worth commenting on or posting about these kinds of people or anything they say beyond correcting obvious lies... imo they are best ignored. We've also had Speedskater, who posts here, post similar kinds of comments on a diyaudio forum thread on snake oil. All these things should be ignored. I regret the times I have not ignored them as it's not worth the mental energy to even think about it.
Cable Switching
I have a Manley Skipjack which allows several cables to be remotely switched with the push of a button. Someone can "blind" push for you, but I get lost anyway after a minute of random button pushing. You can borrow the unit; just let me know in advance so I can search the audio caves [hopefully the trolls did not get it].
zz.
I have a Manley Skipjack which allows several cables to be remotely switched with the push of a button. Someone can "blind" push for you, but I get lost anyway after a minute of random button pushing. You can borrow the unit; just let me know in advance so I can search the audio caves [hopefully the trolls did not get it].
zz.
Seems like you can add burn-in to the list of things you never talk about...politics,religion,...
The CBI deniers what do they hang their hat's on? That everything is known in the field of sound reproduction? Does common mode noise effect the transmission of the audio signal? Read Shunyata's explanation on separating the audio signal from EMI http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
Not a complete explanation of how magnetic interference can and does corrupt the audio signal, but a good general overview. This is not a mystery...Western Electric,Bell Labs and AES engineers have known about this for several generations.
The CBI deniers what do they hang their hat's on? That everything is known in the field of sound reproduction? Does common mode noise effect the transmission of the audio signal? Read Shunyata's explanation on separating the audio signal from EMI http://shunyata.com/technical-articles/
Not a complete explanation of how magnetic interference can and does corrupt the audio signal, but a good general overview. This is not a mystery...Western Electric,Bell Labs and AES engineers have known about this for several generations.
What you just said here is interesting; Nordost, and others, perform public cables testing...we trust their methods and the time each cable was and not was used prior.
Dave, I feel the same and I agree with you and with other smart people; best is to simply ignore these ignorant cable people.
I dunno, I had a $700 Nordost Ethernet cable in for evaluation. No one could hear the difference when blinded between it and 315 foot of generic CAT5e on a $4000 streamer.
Everyone has burned in cables after a while. Not sure why this is even championed. Just use your system. When I put mine together it sound great right out of the gates. Still does.
Cables definitely make a difference especially when EMI and high current are the norm .
The Nordost demonstration that I saw was definitely rigged as he used two different tracks of the same song to demonstrate two different cables within their own brand . Not something you want to see when you're considering spending $30,000 on 12' of speaker cable .
I have my opinion about cable burn in but am not in a position to quantify as the resolution of my system is not anywhere close to most of yours.
The Nordost demonstration that I saw was definitely rigged as he used two different tracks of the same song to demonstrate two different cables within their own brand . Not something you want to see when you're considering spending $30,000 on 12' of speaker cable .
I have my opinion about cable burn in but am not in a position to quantify as the resolution of my system is not anywhere close to most of yours.
Hallo, everyone!
I am a member of Audioholics forum site. Don't worry, I didn't come here to provoke or insult anyone, if it happens as a result of difference of opinions, I'll just leave and won't add any oil. I'm taking you up on this "share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism". I'm here representing MY OWN opinions and am not in any way Audioholics spokesman (nor would they choose me
). Just a member and still a newbie to a large extent.
I'm here to tell you that up until now, no valid reason for expensive cables and/or cable break-in has ever been detected.
I know it goes against your grain, but I thought, perhaps you have some members here that would like to hear this or could use this. So, I'm not imposing anything, I'm not forcing anyone, take it or leave it.
You can sell copper for 2$/meter and you can sell copper for 6500$/meter and this is THE ONE AND ONLY reason behind all this. I'd bet it's among the highest margins in economy altogether as I've seen much more expensive ones. Raw material directly into a luxury, LVMH grade product. And this is why, with all due respect, you cannot get the entire answer from DaveC. It is simply impossible for anyone, not just him, who sells overpriced cables to tell you "I want 8868,00$ for a product you absolutely don't need and will not improve your system one bit". So, let's just say Dave's is half the answer (of course, I don't think it's even that).
Some of my observations:
If there was such a thing as "cable break-in" this entire thread would be completely useless. You could set up your system, hook your cables and just wait and listen and you would hear when they break-in, as it is, apparently, quite audible.
The fact that you have to ask, pretty much supports the idea that there's nothing going on there. The fact that the answers to how long it takes and what's the purpose always come from either believers or vendors, supports the rest of my claims.
Now, let me try another thing. Let me adopt your position and think under the impression that there is a difference to broken-in and expensive. OK, so there IS a difference and OTOH there are numerous DB tests where even the biggest supporters of this notion failed to detect that difference.
So, this difference must be minute. It must be barely detectable. No other explanation. People who are absolutely certain there is a difference and pose as experts on the subject, cannot detect it with a satisfying level of certainty. And all of you here can't simply hear it when it comes after the break-in, you have to ask. So, it's minute. (Notice, I don't think there is one. My cables sound the same.)
Is this a difference you'd pay up to 26000$ (it's an example I found)? So minute, are you certain it's not the way you feel? I was nervous the other day and my system sounded awful. So minute, are you sure you have the same curtains before and after break-in? Did you, perhaps, pull them? So barely detectable, perhaps you left the grills on. It's on that level!!! So, if you can't be certain, why give that money? Why behave as if it is undoubtable?
I am a member of Audioholics forum site. Don't worry, I didn't come here to provoke or insult anyone, if it happens as a result of difference of opinions, I'll just leave and won't add any oil. I'm taking you up on this "share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism". I'm here representing MY OWN opinions and am not in any way Audioholics spokesman (nor would they choose me
). Just a member and still a newbie to a large extent.I'm here to tell you that up until now, no valid reason for expensive cables and/or cable break-in has ever been detected.
I know it goes against your grain, but I thought, perhaps you have some members here that would like to hear this or could use this. So, I'm not imposing anything, I'm not forcing anyone, take it or leave it.
You can sell copper for 2$/meter and you can sell copper for 6500$/meter and this is THE ONE AND ONLY reason behind all this. I'd bet it's among the highest margins in economy altogether as I've seen much more expensive ones. Raw material directly into a luxury, LVMH grade product. And this is why, with all due respect, you cannot get the entire answer from DaveC. It is simply impossible for anyone, not just him, who sells overpriced cables to tell you "I want 8868,00$ for a product you absolutely don't need and will not improve your system one bit". So, let's just say Dave's is half the answer (of course, I don't think it's even that).
Some of my observations:
If there was such a thing as "cable break-in" this entire thread would be completely useless. You could set up your system, hook your cables and just wait and listen and you would hear when they break-in, as it is, apparently, quite audible.
The fact that you have to ask, pretty much supports the idea that there's nothing going on there. The fact that the answers to how long it takes and what's the purpose always come from either believers or vendors, supports the rest of my claims.
Now, let me try another thing. Let me adopt your position and think under the impression that there is a difference to broken-in and expensive. OK, so there IS a difference and OTOH there are numerous DB tests where even the biggest supporters of this notion failed to detect that difference.
So, this difference must be minute. It must be barely detectable. No other explanation. People who are absolutely certain there is a difference and pose as experts on the subject, cannot detect it with a satisfying level of certainty. And all of you here can't simply hear it when it comes after the break-in, you have to ask. So, it's minute. (Notice, I don't think there is one. My cables sound the same.)
Is this a difference you'd pay up to 26000$ (it's an example I found)? So minute, are you certain it's not the way you feel? I was nervous the other day and my system sounded awful. So minute, are you sure you have the same curtains before and after break-in? Did you, perhaps, pull them? So barely detectable, perhaps you left the grills on. It's on that level!!! So, if you can't be certain, why give that money? Why behave as if it is undoubtable?
The key to your questions is in this line. Yes, the physical difference is minute - measurements confirm it. However in the appropriate system the perceived difference can be enormous - it is related to the mechanisms of rebuilding an illusion that should be enjoyable in the technical limitations of stereo sound reproduction. We are now dealing with psycho-acoustics, not just with engineering.
It is curious that the engineers were very efficient finding and even exaggerating the drawbacks and limitations of stereo when they were promoting multi-channel, but they quickly forgot about it ...
Steve M, so on your first post here you accuse a member here (me) of some nefarious plot? You think I'm "in on it" and part of some audio illuminati on a mission to rip off poor, naive audiophiles who don't have the intelligence or mental acuity to understand they are being fooled? Well, lucky for us our savior is here now to set us all straight.
Since you at audioholics seem so intent on insisting I'm some Bernie Madoff of the audio world, why don't you spell it all out for us? What is it exactly that I'm doing that's the mysterious "other half" of the story? I'm really interested to hear the conspiracy theories...
Here's the facts: I'm probably the most transparent cable company out there and my prices are small fraction of many others because I sell direct, don't spend much on advertising and fancy packaging. I say EXACTLY what goes into my cables, it's right there on my website. You know the materials used, the plugs used, basically enough you don't even need me to build them for you, so I have a DIY section where you can buy the materials used to make my cables and do it yourself. If you think the materials I use are too expensive that's another discussion, but your shady accusations are ridiculous and what has been said on audioholics is libelous. As I mentioned in my previous post one of your members made up lies to prove his point, lies that were obvious, easily checked and used them to try to damage my reputation and my business. This is apparently considered sport on your "forum" and condoned by moderators there? It's unbelievable.
There's never any good that comes with trying to have a discussion with people like you. IMO, you shouldn't have joined and posted here, no good will come of it and I refuse to debate the topic with people that start off the discussion with slander and libel. What has been said about me both at audioholics and here in your first ever post on WBF is disgusting and likely against TOU here. Banned after one post would be fitting imo.
EDIT: Also, the lack of interest in the measurements I posted are telling, rather than ask questions they say it's BS because the totally obvious vertical scale on the chart I posted is obscured. How many other cable companies have posted anything at all in an attempt to show measurable differences due to cable burn-in? My guess is none, and still I'm characterized as some kind of con-man? Talk about misplaced angst!
Since you at audioholics seem so intent on insisting I'm some Bernie Madoff of the audio world, why don't you spell it all out for us? What is it exactly that I'm doing that's the mysterious "other half" of the story? I'm really interested to hear the conspiracy theories...
Here's the facts: I'm probably the most transparent cable company out there and my prices are small fraction of many others because I sell direct, don't spend much on advertising and fancy packaging. I say EXACTLY what goes into my cables, it's right there on my website. You know the materials used, the plugs used, basically enough you don't even need me to build them for you, so I have a DIY section where you can buy the materials used to make my cables and do it yourself. If you think the materials I use are too expensive that's another discussion, but your shady accusations are ridiculous and what has been said on audioholics is libelous. As I mentioned in my previous post one of your members made up lies to prove his point, lies that were obvious, easily checked and used them to try to damage my reputation and my business. This is apparently considered sport on your "forum" and condoned by moderators there? It's unbelievable.
There's never any good that comes with trying to have a discussion with people like you. IMO, you shouldn't have joined and posted here, no good will come of it and I refuse to debate the topic with people that start off the discussion with slander and libel. What has been said about me both at audioholics and here in your first ever post on WBF is disgusting and likely against TOU here. Banned after one post would be fitting imo.
EDIT: Also, the lack of interest in the measurements I posted are telling, rather than ask questions they say it's BS because the totally obvious vertical scale on the chart I posted is obscured. How many other cable companies have posted anything at all in an attempt to show measurable differences due to cable burn-in? My guess is none, and still I'm characterized as some kind of con-man? Talk about misplaced angst!
Last edited:
Hallo, everyone!
I am a member of Audioholics forum site. Don't worry, I didn't come here to provoke or insult anyone, if it happens as a result of difference of opinions, I'll just leave and won't add any oil. I'm taking you up on this "share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism". I'm here representing MY OWN opinions and am not in any way Audioholics spokesman (nor would they choose me
I'm here to tell you that up until now, no valid reason for expensive cables and/or cable break-in has ever been detected.
I know it goes against your grain, but I thought, perhaps you have some members here that would like to hear this or could use this. So, I'm not imposing anything, I'm not forcing anyone, take it or leave it.
You can sell copper for 2$/meter and you can sell copper for 6500$/meter and this is THE ONE AND ONLY reason behind all this. I'd bet it's among the highest margins in economy altogether as I've seen much more expensive ones. Raw material directly into a luxury, LVMH grade product. And this is why, with all due respect, you cannot get the entire answer from DaveC. It is simply impossible for anyone, not just him, who sells overpriced cables to tell you "I want 8868,00$ for a product you absolutely don't need and will not improve your system one bit". So, let's just say Dave's is half the answer (of course, I don't think it's even that).
Some of my observations:
If there was such a thing as "cable break-in" this entire thread would be completely useless. You could set up your system, hook your cables and just wait and listen and you would hear when they break-in, as it is, apparently, quite audible.
The fact that you have to ask, pretty much supports the idea that there's nothing going on there. The fact that the answers to how long it takes and what's the purpose always come from either believers or vendors, supports the rest of my claims.
Now, let me try another thing. Let me adopt your position and think under the impression that there is a difference to broken-in and expensive. OK, so there IS a difference and OTOH there are numerous DB tests where even the biggest supporters of this notion failed to detect that difference.
So, this difference must be minute. It must be barely detectable. No other explanation. People who are absolutely certain there is a difference and pose as experts on the subject, cannot detect it with a satisfying level of certainty. And all of you here can't simply hear it when it comes after the break-in, you have to ask. So, it's minute. (Notice, I don't think there is one. My cables sound the same.)
Is this a difference you'd pay up to 26000$ (it's an example I found)? So minute, are you certain it's not the way you feel? I was nervous the other day and my system sounded awful. So minute, are you sure you have the same curtains before and after break-in? Did you, perhaps, pull them? So barely detectable, perhaps you left the grills on. It's on that level!!! So, if you can't be certain, why give that money? Why behave as if it is undoubtable?
leave it.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
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