The dryness comment comparison to Dart, Lamm and VaC aside, I would be interested in knowing if Tripoint can make a "typical" SS (which we don't usually like and sounds harsh and dry) more liquid. If yes, it would be a great, though expensive solution, for more normal systems. Especially if the lower priced Tripoint models can drastically improve, say, a Krell Apogee Scintilla system.
The Audio System and High-End Philosophy of Mike Lavigne
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I wouldn't call it liquid, but they will soften the sound some as they expand the "airness" around instruments and such.
Good grounding does not soften the sound at all. On the contrary, if gives inter alia more transparency and more 'realness'.
Dear Bruce Dee,
Sometime I wonder if the Tripoint actually makes your system sound worsewhen you disconnect it. I mean when you have it in your system, you get all the goodies that Tripoint users talk about. I am using the Elite. I hear all that too. Recently, I connected my tape pre to it and boy it alleviates my tape sound even more. But when you even unhook just one of the grounding cables, even from a power supply of my phono, I get this incoherent sound that can be easily detected if you are not deaf. The thing is Before I had the Elite in my system, I didnt hear any harshness or disoriented sound like this. I know there will be consequences having said this
Hello Tang,
Kind regards,
Tang
Hello Tang,
I consider you one of the diplomats of this forum (and just to be sure: I mean this as a compliment), so no need to "get back to (your) hole".
The explanation for your experience is rather straightforward in my view: Tripoint grounding removes EMI/RFI, partly through the concept of magnetics. The removal of distortion from your audio system equals in my view a non mechanical feeling which captures (much) more emotion out the musical performance you are listening to. Once the brain has adapted to this feeling casu quo less distortion, there is no going back.
just to set the record straight.
I reject completely and unequivocally the use of the words 'dry' 'dryness' 'dryer' or any derivative of that word relative to the darTZeel electronics. period. exclamation point.
jeeeezzzzz!!!!!
Ron, see what you have done using bad words around the children. now they are all potty mouth young devils.
I reject completely and unequivocally the use of the words 'dry' 'dryness' 'dryer' or any derivative of that word relative to the darTZeel electronics. period. exclamation point.
jeeeezzzzz!!!!!
Ron, see what you have done using bad words around the children. now they are all potty mouth young devils.
Ron, my thread gently disagreeing with your hypothesis hasn’t really caught on, so I’ll chip in here.
This idea you put forward that Mike has been able to choose purely neutral open window components because his room is so brilliant a blank canvas is interesting, but flawed a little.
The components he has chosen were heard elsewhere first. Case in point being the AS-2000 tt, he’s buying it based on stellar demo at David’s. His MSB Select 3 box dac he heard multiple times at shows. His EA spkrs and NVS he heard at JTinn’s. Etc etc.
So he bought these on the same basis that we all do, on hearing them somewhere.
Obviously he then acquires the home demo, what he buys we then get to hear about, what he doesn’t stays unwritten about, or commented on from afar.
My point is that Mike’s initial taster experience is no different to the rest of us, he likes the sound of something and then tries it out.
Now obviously the room broadens and intensifies the demo experience, and every iota of performance is wrought by the room.
But it’s not as if the room “chose” the gear, the gear slotted in, and Mike just lapped it up.
No, he had a hankering for Dartzeel, EA, NVS, MSB, and these have thrived in his room.
I truly believe he could have liked Ares Cerat dac, pre, power at a show, or Zellaton spkrs, or CH Precision dac, amps, or AG Trio horns, or restored Apogee Full Ranges, or Robert Koda etc etc (you get my drift) got it home, and the room would have synergised an amazing blend.
And you’d have come away with a parallel musical exposure, maybe just as compelling.
Where I am in full agreement, is that the room is so important, this seems too trivial a phrase. My room epiphany was the start of me calling a halt to all endless upgrading.
This idea you put forward that Mike has been able to choose purely neutral open window components because his room is so brilliant a blank canvas is interesting, but flawed a little.
The components he has chosen were heard elsewhere first. Case in point being the AS-2000 tt, he’s buying it based on stellar demo at David’s. His MSB Select 3 box dac he heard multiple times at shows. His EA spkrs and NVS he heard at JTinn’s. Etc etc.
So he bought these on the same basis that we all do, on hearing them somewhere.
Obviously he then acquires the home demo, what he buys we then get to hear about, what he doesn’t stays unwritten about, or commented on from afar.
My point is that Mike’s initial taster experience is no different to the rest of us, he likes the sound of something and then tries it out.
Now obviously the room broadens and intensifies the demo experience, and every iota of performance is wrought by the room.
But it’s not as if the room “chose” the gear, the gear slotted in, and Mike just lapped it up.
No, he had a hankering for Dartzeel, EA, NVS, MSB, and these have thrived in his room.
I truly believe he could have liked Ares Cerat dac, pre, power at a show, or Zellaton spkrs, or CH Precision dac, amps, or AG Trio horns, or restored Apogee Full Ranges, or Robert Koda etc etc (you get my drift) got it home, and the room would have synergised an amazing blend.
And you’d have come away with a parallel musical exposure, maybe just as compelling.
Where I am in full agreement, is that the room is so important, this seems too trivial a phrase. My room epiphany was the start of me calling a halt to all endless upgrading.
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just to set the record straight.
I reject completely and unequivocally the use of the words 'dry' 'dryness' 'dryer' or any derivative of that word relative to the darTZeel electronics. period. exclamation point.
jeeeezzzzz!!!!!
Ron, see what you have done using bad words around the children. now they are all potty mouth young devils.
So reassuring to read/know that there is this 'one wise and old audio king' that knows it all and watches over all the "children/potty mouth young devils".
Ked, no beta testing at Mike’s for MSB or AS, nor Herzan or Entreq or Tripoint. Not Goldfinger cart, GG, Aqua Formula. Nor Ortofon Anna, Trinity. Not the modded Garrards, not upgraded Studer. Etc etc.
Yes, I do get Mike has been able to test gear at great lengths. Then again Fremer, Breuninger, Valin, Gregory et al have stuff on permanent loan.
I don’t at all disagree Mike’s sound is stellar, just the assertion that the blend is somehow by definition more neutral than other blends purely down to the room.
Mike must have just plain liked the sound of something like MSB before it ended up in his room.
Now whether Mike’s MSB sound is way better than others because of the room, maybe.
Do we believe that Ron would have felt any less impressed by Mike’s room if instead he had brilliantly integrated tri-amped Apogee Full Ranges, or an amazing bunch of SOTA horns/SETs?
I truly believe in a less ideal room, with the same funds Mike could easily have ended up with the same gear.
And in his current room, he could have ended up with similarly impressive sounds from another blend.
As with all things forum, I’m probably staying the bleeding obvious.
Yes, I do get Mike has been able to test gear at great lengths. Then again Fremer, Breuninger, Valin, Gregory et al have stuff on permanent loan.
I don’t at all disagree Mike’s sound is stellar, just the assertion that the blend is somehow by definition more neutral than other blends purely down to the room.
Mike must have just plain liked the sound of something like MSB before it ended up in his room.
Now whether Mike’s MSB sound is way better than others because of the room, maybe.
Do we believe that Ron would have felt any less impressed by Mike’s room if instead he had brilliantly integrated tri-amped Apogee Full Ranges, or an amazing bunch of SOTA horns/SETs?
I truly believe in a less ideal room, with the same funds Mike could easily have ended up with the same gear.
And in his current room, he could have ended up with similarly impressive sounds from another blend.
As with all things forum, I’m probably staying the bleeding obvious.
Some of the gear you mentioned he tried and let go. That aside, Mike does have a top down vision higher than any audiophile I met. So I think if he hears a component that shows promise as per his vision of low noise neutrality, he can bring it in, and set it up better than in the place he first heard it. If he can't, he let's it go.
The flip side is, what sounds good in his system might not be the best for other systems as they wouldn't have reached that level, and say Dartzeel might sound b sterile, or the GFS might not do what it does.
The flip side is, what sounds good in his system might not be the best for other systems as they wouldn't have reached that level, and say Dartzeel might sound b sterile, or the GFS might not do what it does.
That I do get Ked.
Mike is in a totally unique and highly enviable position, with the ideal Bat Cave/Mad Scientist’s Lab to absolutely see thru any pretender to current gear.
As they say, it’s a tough job, but Mike’s up at the crack of dawn to get his hands dirty .
What I’ll remain fascinated by, is eg how the room will reveal where Mike will truly feel the new AS-2000 will beat the NVS sufficiently to relegate a tt he’s absolutely never suggested had even the merest flaw or weakness.
Of course the corollary to all this is that the gear Mike chooses may really not be appropriate, or anywhere as good, in the homes of the rest of us.
I mean Giselle Bündschen looks mighty fine in the arms of Tom Brady, but dropped into our tender embraces? Um, not so hot LOL.
Ked, you and I both know just how poor my old room acoustics were - just how do you think Mike’s exact setup would have fared there as a comparison to the dreamy sound you heard in Mike’s room?
Mike is in a totally unique and highly enviable position, with the ideal Bat Cave/Mad Scientist’s Lab to absolutely see thru any pretender to current gear.
As they say, it’s a tough job, but Mike’s up at the crack of dawn to get his hands dirty .
What I’ll remain fascinated by, is eg how the room will reveal where Mike will truly feel the new AS-2000 will beat the NVS sufficiently to relegate a tt he’s absolutely never suggested had even the merest flaw or weakness.
Of course the corollary to all this is that the gear Mike chooses may really not be appropriate, or anywhere as good, in the homes of the rest of us.
I mean Giselle Bündschen looks mighty fine in the arms of Tom Brady, but dropped into our tender embraces? Um, not so hot LOL.
Ked, you and I both know just how poor my old room acoustics were - just how do you think Mike’s exact setup would have fared there as a comparison to the dreamy sound you heard in Mike’s room?
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Sure, the core of Mike’s gear was developed and voiced in relation to each other, and the deep beta testing done in his room, his room being amongst the best.
I think I get that now .
I think I get that now .
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Uhuh
Technically it's not grounding anything but the RF in the air. The effects they give are from what RF does, and given I know what it looks like as it goes through equipment, have personally switched between having it or not, and heard a bunch of systems with grounding boxes.... I have a pretty good idea.
I think you are under the impression it's a negative thing if you add a bunch of ground boxes and they were to soften the sound a little bit. Why? Many people find gear fatiguing so it seems like a win win if your soundstage gets much more impressive, you are hearing more of what you want, and it's easier to listen to. Personally I don't prefer them and think there are other paths to get certain attributes and other attributes are better without them, but at no point would I ever deny the clear benefits that so many audiophiles absolutely want.
"more transparency and more 'realness' sound like hyperbole to me because whatever descriptions you are talking about certainly could be described much, much better.
Uhuh
Technically it's not grounding anything but the RF in the air. The effects they give are from what RF does, and given I know what it looks like as it goes through equipment, have personally switched between having it or not, and heard a bunch of systems with grounding boxes.... I have a pretty good idea.
I think you are under the impression it's a negative thing if you add a bunch of ground boxes and they were to soften the sound a little bit. Why? Many people find gear fatiguing so it seems like a win win if your soundstage gets much more impressive, you are hearing more of what you want, and it's easier to listen to. Personally I don't prefer them and think there are other paths to get certain attributes and other attributes are better without them, but at no point would I ever deny the clear benefits that so many audiophiles absolutely want.
"more transparency and more 'realness' sound like hyperbole to me because whatever descriptions you are talking about certainly could be described much, much better.
Folsom,
Great review Ron! As a Tripoint Elite owner and someone who is relatively new to high-end, I will do my best to describe what I hear with it in play. Forgive me if I butcher audiophile terms. What I want out of my system has evolved over the last five years but my focus is naturalness, dynamics, and effortlessness. I have never heard the Dartz amps but in my mind, I understand Mike's affinity for their endless power which help deliver dynamics and an effortless sound that can keep going IME. My speakers will limit me, I doubt Mike's have a limit. I can't tell you how Tripoint works, but I will say that after I installed the Elite with 5 Thor SE cables, things started to come together. IMO, part of this is what it does to the noise floor. As Tango mentioned, I thought everything was great until I added the Elite and without it, i hear the degradation. I feel like I'm getting more information at the lowest levels that allows me to hear more soundstage (width & depth), a little more decay on guitar and piano notes that weren't previously heard that sounds more natural to my ears. I can't say if anything is rolled off, I'm not sure I could hear that. On live albums, getting an idea of space is more apparent to me. Bass, even at low volumes is visceral. If you have a well sorted system, an Elite will lift it, and adding better grounding cables to the Elite will elevate the sound even more IME.
Dave
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Uhuh
Technically it's not grounding anything but the RF in the air. The effects they give are from what RF does, and given I know what it looks like as it goes through equipment, have personally switched between having it or not, and heard a bunch of systems with grounding boxes.... I have a pretty good idea.
I think you are under the impression it's a negative thing if you add a bunch of ground boxes and they were to soften the sound a little bit. Why? Many people find gear fatiguing so it seems like a win win if your soundstage gets much more impressive, you are hearing more of what you want, and it's easier to listen to. Personally I don't prefer them and think there are other paths to get certain attributes and other attributes are better without them, but at no point would I ever deny the clear benefits that so many audiophiles absolutely want.
"more transparency and more 'realness' sound like hyperbole to me because whatever descriptions you are talking about certainly could be described much, much better.
Hello Folsom,
The reason I kept my ‘grounding description’ short is twofold: in the Tripoint Troy signature and Emperor threads that I started on WBF more elaborate descriptions of what the Tripoint components are doing in my audio systems can be found. Furthermore in the Tidal La Assoluta thread I wrote (and still write) extensively about the upgrade of the Emperor mk i ‘grounding’ station to the mk ii status as well as about the Emperor mk ii ground cables. So I do not want to repeat myself here.
Secondly this thread is not about grounding but about Ron’s review. A few others and I only brought up the issue of grounding because in our view it deserved to be mentioned in the review (if only for completeness sake).
But anyway, you have various grounding approaches. Apart from my various Taralabs Grandmaster cables with their own ‘ground boxes’ my only grounding experience is with various Tripoint components. Have you ever listened to any of the Tripoint ‘ground’ boxes under controlled circumstances? I guess what I am saying is the following: you have grounding and grounding and ... well you get the picture.
The expression “a warm sound” indeed implies for me a coloration. But just to be clear about this (and I refer to my comments on the threads that I just listed): both Tripoint Emperor components add a fuller tonality but not at any expense. The musical presentation becomes - if you want to use this expression - warmer but at the same time more transparent / coherent / refined / dynamic / faster and with more command, better dynamics and more serinity.
And may I ask you what kind of methods you prefer to grounding?
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What a write up. Very much enjoyed reading the coverage and thoughts. An excellent review from an excellent reviewer and the most gracious host with the most. One of these days Mike I gotta make it out there....
Ron,
Superb work!!! Also Big Thank You to Mike to let so many people into his house - to help advance the cause of the hobby!
So Ron, based on your experience, have your tastes changed? Have any of your system goals changed?
Also, this is a subjective thing, but I judge all great systems based on dynamics, tone/ texture, and timing. (Obviously I get into the flow when I listening, but I am talking about reflecting on the experience post fact.) I got the sense of great dynamics. But you don't mention tone/ texture (or timing, which you may not believe in). Can you please elaborate, if possible? Thanks
Superb work!!! Also Big Thank You to Mike to let so many people into his house - to help advance the cause of the hobby!
So Ron, based on your experience, have your tastes changed? Have any of your system goals changed?
Also, this is a subjective thing, but I judge all great systems based on dynamics, tone/ texture, and timing. (Obviously I get into the flow when I listening, but I am talking about reflecting on the experience post fact.) I got the sense of great dynamics. But you don't mention tone/ texture (or timing, which you may not believe in). Can you please elaborate, if possible? Thanks
Hi Ron.
As english is not my first language, i'll try to explain it as good as i could.
I'm not a "Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer". As all the magazines, Mono and Stereo is a business and your contribution to it affects your opinion, you can accept it or not...
That is not an offens....
In this Hi-End world there are a lot of money on the table and the facts are that i can't write ,as many of the members of this great site, how Mono and Stereo works...
I respect your affirmations, and i'm going to believe you, but you have to understand my impressions. I wish your review would be on personal title....
So, it is better you finish this theme, because, as i said, there is nothing bad on do business on audio. Far away, it is necessary to the Hi-End suvival.....
Let me disagree again. And here begins your prejudices. The fact that you have never evaluates Tripoint products is not a good example. Is like i would say i'm far from knowing Tesla has revolutionized the electrics cars by the simple fact that i never have driven one.
You know a lot of brands that are following the path that Tripoint has open: Nordost, Dalby Audio, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, Entreq, Taiko audio, and many more....
You also have on this site a thread with 130 pages about Tripoint opinions and experiencies......
I tell you a secret. I have a system with no grounding devices, and it sounds great !!!! Unbelievable, doesn't it !!!!
And i tell you another one, if i change my spikes, it still continues sounding great !!!!!
That is What's Best Forum and that means always researching to improve the sound without prejudices. You have been on a temple. One of the most completes examples to improve a system made by Mike.
Remember the Mike philosophy: "Another aspect of Mike’s declared audio philosophy is that “everything matters.” From the footers under each piece of equipment to the material from which the platform under the footers is fabricated to the composition of the boards inside the walls to the electricity coming out of the outlets to ground paths to the loudspeakers to the screw tension of the covers on the AC outlets -- everything matters."
So, everything matters except Tripoint?
Seriously, asking to one member: " How would you describe in detail the sonic before (with the Tripoint in) and after (with the Tripoint out)?" after being in front of one Troy and Elite is paradoxical.
Finally, i valore the efford you have done on your review, and as always, i can learn things thanks to it....i have an open mind.
Greetings.
PD: Neutral and colour on audio is an interesting theme. More on another post.....
As english is not my first language, i'll try to explain it as good as i could.
I'm not a "Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer". As all the magazines, Mono and Stereo is a business and your contribution to it affects your opinion, you can accept it or not...
That is not an offens....
In this Hi-End world there are a lot of money on the table and the facts are that i can't write ,as many of the members of this great site, how Mono and Stereo works...
I respect your affirmations, and i'm going to believe you, but you have to understand my impressions. I wish your review would be on personal title....
So, it is better you finish this theme, because, as i said, there is nothing bad on do business on audio. Far away, it is necessary to the Hi-End suvival.....
Let me disagree again. And here begins your prejudices. The fact that you have never evaluates Tripoint products is not a good example. Is like i would say i'm far from knowing Tesla has revolutionized the electrics cars by the simple fact that i never have driven one.
You know a lot of brands that are following the path that Tripoint has open: Nordost, Dalby Audio, Synergistic Research, Shunyata, Entreq, Taiko audio, and many more....
You also have on this site a thread with 130 pages about Tripoint opinions and experiencies......
I tell you a secret. I have a system with no grounding devices, and it sounds great !!!! Unbelievable, doesn't it !!!!
And i tell you another one, if i change my spikes, it still continues sounding great !!!!!
That is What's Best Forum and that means always researching to improve the sound without prejudices. You have been on a temple. One of the most completes examples to improve a system made by Mike.
Remember the Mike philosophy: "Another aspect of Mike’s declared audio philosophy is that “everything matters.” From the footers under each piece of equipment to the material from which the platform under the footers is fabricated to the composition of the boards inside the walls to the electricity coming out of the outlets to ground paths to the loudspeakers to the screw tension of the covers on the AC outlets -- everything matters."
So, everything matters except Tripoint?
Seriously, asking to one member: " How would you describe in detail the sonic before (with the Tripoint in) and after (with the Tripoint out)?" after being in front of one Troy and Elite is paradoxical.
Finally, i valore the efford you have done on your review, and as always, i can learn things thanks to it....i have an open mind.
Greetings.
PD: Neutral and colour on audio is an interesting theme. More on another post.....
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