The Audio System and High-End Philosophy of Mike Lavigne

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks Mike for sharing your system for all to see and surmise and thank you Ron for the very detailed write up. Ron...Are you saying the ML3’s fail to deliver with rock and pop on Mike’s system ? That’s a lot of important music in those two genre’s....hmmmm

Thank you, Christian!

I think the ML3s are not the right amplifiers for "power" rock on Mike's system in Mike's room.

 

[Ron Resnick]

earlier in the amplifier thread i had thanked Ron and Tinka for taking the time out of their busy lives to travel to my home and visit Pam and i. it was a great pleasure to enjoy Ron's company and friendship for 2 very focused days.

today I've been at work, and doing lots of commenting on comments regarding Ron's article.

i'm finally home tonight, and before i go any further i want to thank Ron for the wonderful write up and all the very, very kind and generous things he said about my efforts and system. Ron's approach is challenging as it's focused as much about the thinking as about the gear and music. and it does make us all (including me) examine our own approaches and consider what we are doing. and it contains Ron's own views (and honest acknowledgements of his own biases) on his decision processes so it's honest and personal for him. and i think he did a marvelous job of navigating through these various issues and delivered on his intentions.

Bravo Ron, i am humbled and and many thanks buddy!!!

Mike, thank you very much for your very kind and gracious words! We had an absolutely amazing time!

And as far as you thanking me for anything, please know that you are very welcome and that the pleasure was all mine!

The funny thing is that before arriving at your home I had decided that I really was not in the mood for a writing project. But I learned a lot during the visit and I realized then that I had quite a bit to say!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Great write up there Ron. I remember when Mike had Mark Levinson amps and just bought his Karma speakers - start of the slippery slope

Mike - enjoy the great system and more importantly the music!!

Thank you, XV-1. It is nice that you have followed Mike throughout his entire audio journey!

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

Ron is a "Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer", business interests are evident.
Maybe Matej is not happy with Tripoint....

There is nothing bad on this, but please, do not treat like this a brand that has revolutionized the audio world with that affimation: "Mike has deployed an elaborate array of Tripoint and Entreq grounding products, which I do not understand and which we did not discuss." following with "Mike is intellectually honest when he stipulates that he does not know how or why things sound as they do. He is not a scientist or an electronics engineer, and he does not pretend to be".

So, what had you to discuss?

Truth only has one way....

King regards.

Dear Stereophonic,

1) That is a very interesting theory. The facts are:

A) I have never received a single penny from anything I have ever written for Mono and Stereo.

B) I literally have no idea if Tripoint advertises on Mono and Stereo.

C) Matej and I have never once discussed -- not in person, not on the telephone, not in email, not on SMS, not via Morse Code, not via smoke signals -- Tripoint products.

D) I did not discuss the content of the article with Matej at all before he published it.​

So, that dog won't hunt!

2) I have never evaluated Tripoint products so I am far from knowing that Tripoint has "revolutionized the audio world." Why would I write something like that if I do not personally know that statement to be true?

3) Given the number of systems I have heard -- in dealer showrooms, at audio shows, in friends' homes and at manufacturer's factories -- which do not use Tripoint products and which still sound great, I find your assertion that Tripoint has "revolutionized the audio world" (emphasis added) to be pure hyperbole. I am sure that Tripoint devotees believe that Tripoint has revolutionized their audio systems.

4) Every single one of the statements I attributed to Mike in my article is true and the statements are not inconsistent. I believe that Mike strongly believes that the Tripoint products have improved the sound of his system. That does not mean that Mike can explain the technical electrical or grounding reasons why the Tripoint products have improved the sound of his system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks - if Ron considers "Malletoba Spank" complex music, I can imagine his reaction to some of my Black Saint LP's ...

Just saying it once more - IMHO if writers do not refer to the specific recording they listened readers can get an erroneous and misleading view about what was perceived.

Fair enough. You know from my prior visit reports that I usually list what we listened to. But with this visit we listened to not only my entire stack of LPs -- as well as the Chesky re-issue of The Power of the Orchestra I purchased again for this particular visit -- but so many, many pop, jazz, blues and classical pieces I would not be able to remember them all even with hypnotic regression therapy!

But, in retrospect, I probably should have not written "complex jazz" as I meant to describe that dynamic compression effect primarily in the instances in which I specifically remember hearing it: dynamic pop tracks and classical symphony orchestra pieces.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
F. Toole reported some statistics on reverberation time in existing living rooms. Although a few had poor measurements, most of them - I do not have the book with me, I can report on exact numbers - had good measurements.

And although most agree on the importance of the listening room, most will disagree on what is a good listening room. It seems there is even fundamental disagreement in WBF between basic things, such as plywood or drywall ...

Please debate this with Folsom. He suggested 1) that acoustic measurements are objective, and 2) that can be used fairly easily to build a good listening room for two-channel audio.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, thank you very much for spending the time to share your impressions of Mike's system. As we all know, there has been much written about Mike's system: its development and its sound. I recall reading very little, if anything, about whether or not the system sounds like real music. Mike has said that he does not use live music as a reference and that his goal is for the system to get out of the way of the music. Ron writes about the importance of the neutrality of the room and the system, and of the individual components.

All of this led me to believe that Mike's goal is to faithfully reproduce what is on the recording. References are his own system development, other systems, and his recordings, but Mike rarely mentions live music, so I am most appreciative of these few quotes above. They give me a very different impression of Mike's system and what it achieves, at least as heard and described by Ron. As I listen to a lot of live, large scale symphonic music played by the BSO, I very much appreciate learning what I have about Mike's system through Ron's writing.

Mike, Thank you again for opening your listening room to others and for allowing them to share their impressions. These photographs are also great to see and give a real idea of the scale of the space and what it and the system look like.

Thank you, Peter.

I, too, have been puzzled how Mike can get this audio stuff so "right" without using live music as a compass. I defer to Mike to articulate his high-end audio goal. I like the live music reference.

Whatever Mike's professed goal I thought I heard an amazingly realistic recreation of the sound of a performance of "The Great Gate at Kiev" in Mike's room.

Mike seems to have, or to have developed, an internal sonic gyroscope that leads him to the right sonic results.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Nothing stands out or forces you to focus on it, so you're able to examine all of it in an extended scale - like the physical embodiment is about the room. And it can sound like you're in a big venue!

So it does not sound like live music, and it does not sound like all the characters of the studio. It is really about getting a special view into everything going on within the music. It gives a depth of ability to differentiate all the things happening without limitation, that is on such a level that it makes it world class. And it can do it while rocking out to Led Zeppelin or Bach.

Respectfully, Folsom, I cannot relate your view to the two full days and nights I spent listening to music with Mike. I just do not understand what you are talking about.

 

[dminches]

Yes, I referred to him a few lines bellow. Jeff seems to be one of the nice guys - I quote him "The proper use of either absorption or diffusion is going to be based on A) the type of and location of speaker, B) the boundary surfaces both type and location again and C) the preferences of the client. These preferences are identified in the discovery portion of the design process.

Jeff did my room and I never expressed nor was asked about my preference. Everything he did was from a measurement and application perspective. It was all math.

 

[Folsom]

Respectfully, Folsom, I cannot relate your view to the two full days and nights I spent listening to music with Mike. I just do not understand what you are talking about.

Very interesting. It never ceases to amaze me how different everyone hears everything. I feel like my description is very accurate. I was pretty amazed how it could paint such a picture about the whole room.

 

[BruceD]

Figuring out the incremental benefit of all of Mike's Tripoint equipment in the system versus unplugging it all and listening to the system without any of it would have been a completely different visit and a completely different mission.

With no Horse in this race--I can say here that in a private session I witnessed in which a Tripoint Emperor was unplugged during Vinyl playback

The difference was immediately noticeable for the detriment with the unit OUT.

I would categorically state that in a serious Hi End no holds barred /etc/etc environment --the Tripoints work their Magic unabated.

In a modest but pleasing system--allowing for the TP cost factor--it may however be case of the tail wagging the Dog

so Horses for courses

BruceD

 

[Ron Resnick]

Very interesting. It never ceases to amaze me how different everyone hears everything. I feel like my description is very accurate. I was pretty amazed how it could paint such a picture about the whole room.

Yes, that is very interesting!

Mainly I could not relate to your description that it did not sound like live music. I thought Mike's system did sound like live music.

 

[Ron Resnick]

With no Horse in this race--I can say here that in a private session I witnessed in which a Tripoint Emperor was unplugged during Vinyl playback

The difference was immediately noticeable for the detriment with the unit OUT.

I would categorically state that in a serious Hi End no holds barred /etc/etc environment --the Tripoints work their Magic unabated.

In a modest but pleasing system--allowing for the TP cost factor--it may however be case of the tail wagging the Dog

. . .

How would you describe in detail the sonic before (with the Tripoint in) and after (with the Tripoint out)?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Respectfully, Folsom, I cannot relate your view to the two full days and nights I spent listening to music with Mike. I just do not understand what you are talking about.

Very interesting. It never ceases to amaze me how different everyone hears everything. I feel like my description is very accurate. I was pretty amazed how it could paint such a picture about the whole room.

Yes, that is very interesting!

Mainly I could not relate to your description that it did not sound like live music. I thought Mike's system did sound like live music.

we all hear differently; so this is part of this picture. then there is the exact meanings of our hifi words......which can contribute to perceived differences. however; one other thing is that my system has advanced in some good ways since 6+ months ago when Folsom visited. I would doubt that that would account for the whole difference, but it could be a component of the differences.

some of the changes;

--added the Tripoint Elite to my sources, which allowed me to move the Tripoint Troy Sig to the amps.

--added 2 Taiko Tana active units, one TS-150 under my dart pre, and another TS-140 under my NVS tt, and then moved my stock TS-150 to under my SGM server.

--added 5 sets of Hardpoint Trinia footers; one under each Tripoint box, and three under the MSB Select II chassis.

--added the ML3 Signature amplifiers (although it seems both Ron's and Folsom's comments are mostly based on hearing full orchestral on the dart 458 amps).

no doubt these collective differences have significantly advanced my perceptions of the system realism factor to my ears. richer tonalities, greater dynamics and vividness, less a sense of any reproduction chain, more overall refinement.

I can tell you these were considered important by me......and significant steps up.

 

[DaveC]

THE (SAD) REVELATION

My visit to Mike’s barn made me realize that we think audio things, and we make sonic conclusions, based on sandcastles of prejudices, inaccurate judgments, spurious correlations and mere theories. Very few of us have an ultimate neutral reference standard by which to judge each individual component and to attempt to figure out what is contributing to what sound quality -- what truly is causing a perceived sonic attribute or an assumed coloration.

When some people find a Benz Micro LP-S cartridge or a ZYX UNIverse Premium cartridge to sound more “natural” than a Lyra Atlas or an Ortofon MC Anna or a Goldfinger Statement is it because they are perceiving correctly the inherent, true, essential sonic nature of the cartridge, or is it because the tonearm is failing to control the resonance of a seemingly bright cartridge? Is it because the solid-state amplifier in the system is over-emphasizing the leading edge transient of music, and we are accusing falsely the cartridge (or the pre-amplifier or the cables) of the sonic crime? What if we are misreading the true nature of the cartridge (or any other component under scrutiny)? What if the cartridge, in fact, is neutral but the tonearm which carries it or the turntable to which the tonearm is mounted is introducing some kind of anomaly or non-neutrality which impairs or skews what is a truly neutral performance by the cartridge? How would most of us ever know?

Perhaps we audition a system and come away from the audition believing that tube electronics are failing to resolve all of the details in the music. But how do we know it was the tubes causing this? Perhaps the sound of the system was insufficiently detailed because the cables connecting the components are of a copper composition which smoothes out detail or truncates the leading edge of musical transients? Why do we conclude that the tubes are smoothing out the sound when the culprit could be a turntable whose spring suspension is somehow dampening the musical “life” coming out of the tonearm/cartridge assembly?

Perhaps the system sounds overly smooth not because of tubes shaving off detail but because the acoustic treatments in the room are absorbing too much of the energy produced by the system? Perhaps the uneven frequency response of the room is adulterating the performance of every component which in the system? How are we to avoid being adrift in a morass of dueling sonic assumptions and prejudices, and paralyzing nihilism, if we cannot be confident that the most important component in the system -- the room -- is reasonably neutral to begin with?

I am now certain that unless an audio system starts with a reasonably neutral room the audiophile will never be able to discern accurately the true nature of each subsequent component he selects. *I agree with Mike that in order truly to solve for neutrality the first component must be neutral and the second component must be neutral and the third component must be neutral, and so on. If for some reason a system assembled this way exhibits some coloration or anomaly, then that singular non-neutrality can be addressed. In Mike’s case that singular anomaly was either the generation of excessive high-frequency information or the occurrence of unwanted high frequency reflections in his listening room. This non-neutrality was solved with a thin fabric on sections of the walls and the ceiling.

This should be stickied or just displayed on a banner somewhere permanently.

I believe it is human nature to form opinions and beliefs out of whatever information is available, and most often with a complete disregard for logic due to bias. This applies to pretty much everything, in all aspects of life firm opinions and beliefs are held based on incomplete information and faulty logic. Nobody is completely immune, but it is possible to be more conscious of this once you're aware of it... We're probably all best off questioning our beliefs and not holding them so tightly.

With audio specifically, we have about half the knowledge down as measurable and objective fact, so this leaves a vast array of subjective impressions open for conjecture. You can measure lots of stuff and it may diagnose some problems, but the example of lack of resolution is simply not measurable and it can come from many sources. Add to that the lack of standardization of both recording/mastering and playback systems and it's simply a mess... issues can easily come from the recording and not the system so it can further confuse things as often something sounds "right" in track A with part A but track B sounds better with part B. I have had customers choose lower end interconnect cables as a result of this... lower end in my line means warmer and smoother so we have folks sacrificing fidelity in favor of warming and smoothing the sound to make these issues less apparent. And these aren't folks with lower end systems either, this applies to systems well intro the 6 figures setup by people with experience.

That's also why there's a million competing beliefs about everything... the less objective fact, the more BS... probably my own beliefs too in many ways.

 

[Folsom]

I can tell you these were considered important by me......and significant steps up.

I don't doubt that the sound has changed. As goes the hobby! Unlike Ron I'd love to hear the MSB DAC in a stellar room like yours. I've always liked them.

 

[BruceD]

How would you describe in detail the sonic before (with the Tripoint in) and after (with the Tripoint out)?

Well firstly it was the Emperor version --so I cannot vouch for the versions used and quoted in use in the Forum here--

With the Unit OUT --words of one syllable --- Compression

The width of the Soundstage beyond the Speakers "compressed" into the void between the Speakers

That was the most specific aspect to me and plus the ancillary diminishing sonics that is associated with such.

My opinion the Tripoints should at least be considered for any HiEnd system inclusion--listen and decide for ones self--easy

BruceD

 

[DaveC]

This is the first description of sound of Mike's system that, to me, explain so well and give excellent sense of a few aspects of his sound without being there myself.

Kind regards,
Tang

I agree, nice writing.

The ability of the system to recreate the venue as it's soundstage generally means things are pretty dialed.

 

[Tango]

Well firstly it was the Emperor version --so I cannot vouch for the versions used and quoted in use in the Forum here--

In words of one syllable --- Compression

The width of the Soundstage beyond the Speakers "compressed" into the void between the Speakers

That was the most specific aspect to me and plus the ancillary diminishing sonics that is associated with such.

My opinion the Tripoints should at least be considered for any HiEnd system inclusion--listen and decide for ones self--easy

BruceD

Dear Bruce Dee,

Sometime I wonder if the Tripoint actually makes your system sound worse when you disconnect it. I mean when you have it in your system, you get all the goodies that Tripoint users talk about. I am using the Elite. I hear all that too. Recently, I connected my tape pre to it and boy it alleviates my tape sound even more. But when you even unhook just one of the grounding cables, even from a power supply of my phono, I get this incoherent sound that can be easily detected if you are not deaf. The thing is Before I had the Elite in my system, I didnt hear any harshness or disoriented sound like this. I know there will be consequences having said this . Just an observation. I better get back to my hole.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Audiocrack]

Dear Audiocrack,

Thank you for your kind words.

Tripoint components may bring all the benefits you and Robert claim. But where in the article did I suggest that they do not? Where did I write a single word critical of the Tripoint components? All I wrote was that we did not discuss them and I do not understand them. How is that being critical of them or denigrating their sonic utility? I truly am puzzled.

You know I am a big fan of your, but if you (and Robert) expected me to write that Mike's system sounds as good as it does primarily because of grounding equipment I think you are drinking too much of Miguel's Kool-Aid.

Figuring out the incremental benefit of all of Mike's Tripoint equipment in the system versus unplugging it all and listening to the system without any of it would have been a completely different visit and a completely different mission.

Morning Ron,

Just woke up and saw your comments regarding one of my previous comments in this thread.The smiley after your first sentence and an expression like “Miguel’s Kool-Aid” suggest irritation on your side. That puzzles me in all honesty.

First of all, I do not think this forum was created for diplomats (only). If I read things on WBF I disagree with or opinions that in my view need more context, I react in case I think a broader / different view might be interesting to our members. And maybe unlike some of our members I do not distinquish in this regard between comments made by ‘regular’ members and founding members or administrators of this forum. Respectfully disagreeing with eachother or seeing different audio angles should be possible on WBF.

In my reaction I did not state nor made the suggestion that you were critical about the Tripoint grounding. That was not the point. My (main) point was that (top notch) grounding is key for getting a really great, that is a realistic, music reproduction at home. Nothing more but also nothing less. It is in my view one of the fundamentals - as acoustics, power and isolation - of our joint hobby.

You experienced a certain dryness with the Dartzeel solid state amplification. And I suppose this is one of the reasons (or maybe the main reason?) why Mike is experimenting with / listening to tube amplification in his set up. If he would have been completely happy with his audio system / ss amps it would make no sense to invest a large sum of money in set amps. Without the grounding he is currently employing this dryness would have been (much) more profound. And guess what: if Mike would ground his ss amps with a Tripoint Elite or use (even) better ground cables, this artifact will (very) likely dissappear.

So in short, my point was - and I suppose the same applies to Robert but he can speak for himself - and is that by ignoring the importance of grounding the audio picture was not complete. Nothing more, nothing less.