The Audio System and High-End Philosophy of Mike Lavigne

[christoph]

Nvs, Dartzeel, Durand, were beta tested in Mike's room for months, and Ron used for development

Ked, are you Mikes spokesman now?

 

[caesar]

Peter,

I would describe Mike's (458) system more like a 3D mapping system that lets you look at everything in the soundstage, and with an unlimited dynamic range so you don't get any false flags about what is where, or what is being played. It is more like you get this experience that makes you sure you could get up and walk around going from musician to musician, and see what they are all playing. It kind of reminds me of a very high dynamic gray-scale image (blind people that sonic locate see in gray-scale, connection?). Nothing stands out or forces you to focus on it, so you're able to examine all of it in an extended scale - like the physical embodiment is about the room. And it can sound like you're in a big venue!

So it does not sound like live music, and it does not sound like all the characters of the studio. It is really about getting a special view into everything going on within the music. It gives a depth of ability to differentiate all the things happening without limitation, that is on such a level that it makes it world class. And it can do it while rocking out to Led Zeppelin or Bach.

Hi Folsom,
Interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing it.

Here's my primer on subjectivity, borrowed from another post...

"... let me bring a psychological perspective of subjective experiences to the discussion to help address the title of your post - a way to increase mutual understanding. The ideas below expressed are a high level summary based on actual, well-accepted research, so it's not and not just some BS...

It has been said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture. This is also true when it comes to putting words around subjective experiences of audio... Objective stimuli in the world create subjective stimuli in the mind. We hear a system and we use words to describe them. Using these "audiophile" words, we think that our fellow audiophile is having the same subjective experience inside their skull. But it's not really true, as one can tell from the arguments and virtually different systems and rooms) that everyone has...

A word like “real” "natural", "slam", "presence" are abstract words filled with ambiguity. They really are nothing more or less than words that anyone can use to indicate anything we please. The problem is that people seem pleased to use this or that word to indicate a host of different things, which has created a tremendous terminological mess…

A lot of the mess stems from one's prior experiences with a system/ product – or a lack thereof. As an example, if someone lacks the machinery for a sexual orgasm, then our experience of orgasm is one that this person will never know - no matter how much we talk about it, or dance about it.

Experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets in world class venues, caring deeds, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multidimensional, and impalpable. Because “Real” or "natural" is also an experience, it can only be approximately defined by its antecedents and by its relation to other experiences. "Spicy" means something different to a person used to eating South Indian cuisine every day than to a mom buying potato chips labeled as "spicy" in the supermarket for the super bowl party. That’s why I can’t stand reviewers like “worthless to the fan” Robert Harley who never compare, but just proclaim something as “BEST!” because some new detail he heard tickled his analytical preference. (Note: I am not attacking him as a person, but criticizing him for the value of his work to the audiophile community. I am not saying he's a worthless human being, just that his work is completely useless to the fan... I'm sure he's a great guy in real life with great family and friends and an upstanding member of his community.)

I'm also sure Harley's manufacturer friends and advertisers love to get a headline that they got the very "BEST" product on the market, but the "BEST" claim is pathetic and useless to the stressed-out audio fan traveling around to hear things on different continents in order to find a great piece of gear.

Without knowledge of the how an experience of piece of gear compares to another one he may be familiar with and narrowing things down, that an audio fan has to travel and spend precious time and hard-earned money to find some piece of gear that he hoped will put him in a state of flow where he connects with the music and all problems melt away.

Of course, the reality is that piece of gear proclaimed as "best" is only in Harley's imagination. Something like magico q7 and Berkeley Reference SAC "disappears" only in his mind and a handful of people who share his preferences. But to many fans, this gear sticks out and disrupts the musical experience as a colonoscopy done by a jittery intern who forgot to call the anesthesia ... of course, that painful experience could have been avoided if Harley did a good job comparing the experiences and let the fans decide if that experience is worth pursuing ...every time he writes about something as "BEST", his work screams "self-serving hyperbole" and "marketese" to fans.

Coming back to some theory, once we have an experience - hear a component that does something very new or very different – like speed and inner detail of a horn, or an electrostatic midrange amplified by tubes, we cannot simply set it aside and see the world as we would have seen it had the experience never happened. Our experiences instantly become the lens through which we view (or the filter we hear through, if you would) all past, present, and future. And like and lens or filter, they color our perspective as well.

Additionally, we are only human , so distorted views of reality are made possible by the fact that experiences are ambiguous -that is, they can be credibly viewed in many ways, some of which are more positive than others. Different moods, auditioning circumstances, people we like or don’t like, preconceived notions, prior good meals , great "intimate relations", or rude taxi drivers,etc… all can play part in impacting what we perceive when we listen.

Furthermore, to complicate things even further, our remembrance of things past is imperfect, thus comparing our new understanding of “real” with our memory of our old "real" is a risky way to determine whether two subjective experiences are really different...

But just because there are challenges posed to us by human nature, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Instead, we should work even harder to overcome them...

If several audiophiles share the same experiences, such as attending shows or presentations, their taste may not always agree 100 percent, but they will be more effective in communicating in what the others mean if they get together, analyze experiences, and specify the language to help extract the most important features of the experiences so we can analyze them and communicate them later... Practically, except for small groups of people, this will never happen. So arguments will go on...

But , fortunately, there is a solution to find that common ground you bring up in the post title...

It's interesting to note that studies show that in general, women aren't as good negotiators as men. Delving into the reasons, women ask less questions to understand the situation to drive the ultimate outcome. Likewise in our little audiophile world, instead of relying on categories or stereotypes, I believe that by respectfully asking questions to probe into others' experience to get a clear understanding of what others want or believe helps increase mutual understanding..."

 

[microstrip]

Please debate this with Folsom. He suggested 1) that acoustic measurements are objective, and 2) that can be used fairly easily to build a good listening room for two-channel audio.

I would be happy to debate it with anyone directly - but I do not debate indirect interpretations of the views of other members, particularly without quotes. Can I know what is particular view on the subject? Are you analyzing measurements of your room?

 

[shakti]

Thank you Ron for the precise words describing the 2 days @Mike
Thank you Mike for inviting people listening to your set up!
Every visitor report is so inspiring, as every listener brings his blend of expectations and experience to your room, so with every report a different angle of the given performance becomes more clear and understandable.

I like SET amps a lot , so I used Air Tight ATM 211 mono Amps on 97db Zingali for a year. Than I started to install some room acoustic treatment, which improves the sound a lot. So I continued the improvement process. The management of the energy in the room was vital, as I did not want to create a professional studio acoustic.

But with every step further, the 2x18w of my beloved SET amps started to limit the overall performance in the dynamic peaks of "bigger" music.

The Room was absorbing some of the energy, which helped a lot to get the resolution I was looking for, but on the other hand the need of power, even for 97db speakers was increasing by a margin.

My current tube monos are CAT Convergent Statement Amps ( 2x 16 KT150 tubes, around 200w/channel) are bringing back the dynamic, power and punch I was used too. My room treatment had the effect, that I had to increase the amp power by a factor of 10.

So , just a thought, one possibility about the LAMM performance ( in terms of max SPL) in your room is, that may be your room design is eating some DB (of reflections) and all your amps have to work a little bit harder, than in the most listening rooms , to get a higher SPL.

looking forward to read more about your high end world !

 

[microstrip]

just to set the record straight.

I reject completely and unequivocally the use of the words 'dry' 'dryness' 'dryer' or any derivative of that word relative to the darTZeel electronics. period. exclamation point.

jeeeezzzzz!!!!!

Ron, see what you have done using bad words around the children. now they are all potty mouth young devils.

The question is that Ron is using these words in a relative context - compared to some particular tube amplifiers. Once you take the reference out of the page, I see they can be misleading. But having owned DartZeels and often listened to the 458's I think I understand what he means - but it is really hard to explain. Ron will not like my subjective words , but IMHO some tubes show more "spontaneity" and "irreverence" than DartZeels.

Curiously I find it mainly with chamber or ancient music, my main musical preference.

Let the ´s come!

 

[NorthStar]

Originally Posted by Tango;

"This is the first description of sound of Mike's system that, to me, explain so well and give excellent sense of a few aspects of his sound without being there myself."

Kind regards,
Tang

I agree, nice writing.

The ability of the system to recreate the venue as it's soundstage generally means things are pretty dialed.

From post #115

Originally Posted by Folsom;

"I would describe Mike's (458) system more like a 3D mapping system that lets you look at everything in the soundstage, and with an unlimited dynamic range so you don't get any false flags about what is where, or what is being played. It is more like you get this experience that makes you sure you could get up and walk around going from musician to musician, and see what they are all playing. It kind of reminds me of a very high dynamic gray-scale image (blind people that sonic locate see in gray-scale, connection?). Nothing stands out or forces you to focus on it, so you're able to examine all of it in an extended scale - like the physical embodiment is about the room. And it can sound like you're in a big venue!

So it does not sound like live music, and it does not sound like all the characters of the studio. It is really about getting a special view into everything going on within the music. It gives a depth of ability to differentiate all the things happening without limitation, that is on such a level that it makes it world class. And it can do it while rocking out to Led Zeppelin or Bach."
___

• http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...f-Mike-Lavigne&p=504683&viewfull=1#post504683

 

[Ron Resnick]

Morning Ron,

Just woke up and saw your comments regarding one of my previous comments in this thread.The smiley after your first sentence and an expression like “Miguel’s Kool-Aid” suggest irritation on your side. That puzzles me in all honesty.

First of all, I do not think this forum was created for diplomats (only). If I read things on WBF I disagree with or opinions that in my view need more context, I react in case I think a broader / different view might be interesting to our members. And maybe unlike some of our members I do not distinquish in this regard between comments made by ‘regular’ members and founding members or administrators of this forum. Respectfully disagreeing with eachother or seeing different audio angles should be possible on WBF.

In my reaction I did not state nor made the suggestion that you were critical about the Tripoint grounding. That was not the point. My (main) point was that (top notch) grounding is key for getting a really great, that is a realistic, music reproduction at home. Nothing more but also nothing less. It is in my view one of the fundamentals - as acoustics, power and isolation - of our joint hobby.

You experienced a certain dryness with the Dartzeel solid state amplification. And I suppose this is one of the reasons (or maybe the main reason?) why Mike is experimenting with / listening to tube amplification in his set up. If he would have been completely happy with his audio system / ss amps it would make no sense to invest a large sum of money in set amps. Without the grounding he is currently employing this dryness would have been (much) more profound. And guess what: if Mike would ground his ss amps with a Tripoint Elite or use (even) better ground cables, this artifact will (very) likely dissappear.

So in short, my point was - and I suppose the same applies to Robert but he can speak for himself - and is that by ignoring the importance of grounding the audio picture was not complete. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dear Audiocrack,

Thank you for your very thoughtful and introspective reply.

First, please know that my s are always genuine, and never facetious.

Of course you should never distinguish between "regular" members and founding members or administrators. Anyone who cannot take some heat should get out of the kitchen -- even if it is his kitchen!

I think I was a little trigger-happy when I saw your post because immediately prior to reading your post someone sent me a screenshot of a Facebook post (I am not on Facebook) by Miguel which was a pretty snarky comment. When my wife read Miguel's comment and then read "Mike has deployed an elaborate array of Tripoint and Entreq grounding products, which I do not understand and which we did not discuss" she was dumbfounded to understand how my self-deprecating admission that I do not understand grounding products could possibly have attracted such an obnoxious comment about me from Miguel. So that is the "backstory" to my Kool-Aid comment -- which I absolutely should not have written, and for which I sincerely apologize!

But the theorizing that more Tripoint products "(very) likely" will ameliorate the shade of "dryness" I believe I heard from the darTZeels compared to the ML3s is the kind of preconceived notion and assumption which I argue against in the article. You are a fan of grounding products, and so many sonic problems tend to look to you like grounding issues. Someone who makes cables products probably sees most sonic issues as having a cable-related solution. In the article I implore people to be much more circumspect about what thinking they know what sonic attribute is caused by what, and to not be so quick to assume a particular cause and effect based on their particular component interests or preconceived notions.

You may be right -- but I, personally, have absolutely no idea if even more Tripoint products will ameliorate the "dryness" point.

I agree that acoustics, AC power and isolation are fundamental issues which a well-sorted room and system will address. But to me Mike had a fantastic AC power infrastructure (100 amp Equi-Tech isolation transformer and balanced power device with dedicated circuits leading to Furutech outlets) before the first Tripoint product entered his room.

 

[Ron Resnick]

just to set the record straight.

I reject completely and unequivocally the use of the words 'dry' 'dryness' 'dryer' or any derivative of that word relative to the darTZeel electronics. period. exclamation point.

jeeeezzzzz!!!!!

Ron, see what you have done using bad words around the children. now they are all potty mouth young devils.

My fault, Mike! But I do not know what other word to use to explain why on music for which the ML3 is great in your system I would prefer to hear that music though the ML3 rather than the 458.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

I truly believe he could have liked Ares Cerat dac, pre, power at a show, or Zellaton spkrs, or CH Precision dac, amps, or AG Trio horns, or restored Apogee Full Ranges, or Robert Koda etc etc (you get my drift) got it home, and the room would have synergised an amazing blend.

And you’d have come away with a parallel musical exposure, maybe just as compelling.

. . .

Maybe. But I would guess that Mike would find exotic tube gear to have a coloration of some sort.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Dave, Believe High Fidelity and caesar!

 

[BruceD]

Dear Bruce Dee,

Sometime I wonder if the Tripoint actually makes your system sound worse when you disconnect it. I mean when you have it in your system, you get all the goodies that Tripoint users talk about. I am using the Elite. I hear all that too. Recently, I connected my tape pre to it and boy it alleviates my tape sound even more. But when you even unhook just one of the grounding cables, even from a power supply of my phono, I get this incoherent sound that can be easily detected if you are not deaf. The thing is Before I had the Elite in my system, I didnt hear any harshness or disoriented sound like this. I know there will be consequences having said this . Just an observation. I better get back to my hole.

Kind regards,
Tang

Yooooh Tango Bravo Foxtrot--Roger that!!

Bee Dee

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Are you analyzing measurements of your room?

Yes - I have been trying to get the frequency response chart of Bonnie's measurements.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I used Air Tight ATM 211 mono Amps on 97db Zingali for a year. . . .
The Room was absorbing some of the energy, which helped a lot to get the resolution I was looking for, but on the other hand the need of power, even for 97db speakers was increasing by a margin.

My current tube monos are CAT Convergent Statement Amps. . .

Thank you, shakti!

Do you feel you have lost any SET delicacy or transparency switching from the ATM-211s to the CAT Statements?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe. But I would guess that Mike would find exotic tube gear to have a coloration of some sort.

recently I did own the Lampizator Golden Gate for 15 months, and had the Nagra HD dac twice in my system for a few days over a 4 month period.

ultimately; both were exposed in my system as having colorations that, while I really liked them, had a sameness/coloration over the music. I prefer the sonic viewpoint of the MSB Select II for, among other reasons, better system synergy and more pure window on the musical event. YMMV, just my 2 cents.

 

[microstrip]

Yes - I have been trying to get the frequency response chart of Bonnie's measurements.

What do you expect from the isolated frequency response chart? IMHO it supplies very limited information and can be very misleading.

 

[KeithR]

recently I did own the Lampizator Golden Gate for 15 months, and had the Nagra HD dac twice in my system for a few days over a 4 month period.

ultimately; both were exposed in my system as having colorations that, while I really liked them, had a sameness/coloration over the music. I prefer the sonic viewpoint of the MSB Select II for, among other reasons, better system synergy and more pure window on the musical event. YMMV, just my 2 cents.

Ruh roh- here comes the Lampi police in 3...2...1...

 

[Ron Resnick]

What do you expect from the isolated frequency response chart? IMHO it supplies very limited information and can be very misleading.

Then why did you ask?

 

[Audiocrack]

Dear Audiocrack,

Thank you for your very thoughtful and introspective reply.

First, please know that my s are always genuine, and never facetious.

Of course you should never distinguish between "regular" members and founding members or administrators. Anyone who cannot take some heat should get out of the kitchen -- even if it is his kitchen!

I think I was a little trigger-happy when I saw your post because immediately prior to reading your post someone sent me a screenshot of a Facebook post (I am not on Facebook) by Miguel which was a pretty snarky comment. When my wife read Miguel's comment and then read "Mike has deployed an elaborate array of Tripoint and Entreq grounding products, which I do not understand and which we did not discuss" she was dumbfounded to understand how my self-deprecating admission that I do not understand grounding products could possibly have attracted such an obnoxious comment about me from Miguel. So that is the "backstory" to my Kool-Aid comment -- which I absolutely should not have written, and for which I sincerely apologize!

But the theorizing that more Tripoint products "(very) likely" will ameliorate the shade of "dryness" I believe I heard from the darTZeels compared to the ML3s is the kind of preconceived notion and assumption which I argue against in the article. You are a fan of grounding products, and so many sonic problems tend to look to you like grounding issues. Someone who makes cables products probably sees most sonic issues as having a cable-related solution. In the article I implore people to be much more circumspect about what thinking they know what sonic attribute is caused by what, and to not be so quick to assume a particular cause and effect based on their particular component interests or preconceived notions.

You may be right -- but I, personally, have absolutely no idea if even more Tripoint products will ameliorate the "dryness" point.

I agree that acoustics, AC power and isolation are fundamental issues which a well-sorted room and system will address. But to me Mike had a fantastic AC power infrastructure (100 amp Equi-Tech isolation transformer and balanced power device with dedicated circuits leading to Furutech outlets) before the first Tripoint product entered his room.

Morning Ron,

Good to see we are ‘good’ again!

I can understand why some WBF members have difficulties in believing that I am not exaggerating in my various descriptions about the (Tripoint) grounding experiences with different Tripoint component. That is untill someone experiences it for himself. Therefore my invitation to visit me for a second time - and hear for yourself what high quality grounding (that is unlike in Mike’s system with Miguel’s top of the line ‘ground’ station as well as his new top of the line ground cables (and these ‘Anaconda’s’ ‘crush’ the cables Mike is currently employing)) is doing - still stands.

Ps I am also not on Facebook

 

[Audiocrack]

My fault, Mike! But I do not know what other word to use to explain why on music for which the ML3 is great in your system I would prefer to hear that music though the ML3 rather than the 458.

Why apologizing for something you actually experienced and tried to describe in a honest way? Mike should ‘grow up’ and accept that we hear things differently and have different audio priorities / preferences and that (even) his beloved solid state amplification is not everyone’s favourite (as regards all kinds of music).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My fault, Mike! But I do not know what other word to use to explain why on music for which the ML3 is great in your system I would prefer to hear that music though the ML3 rather than the 458.

'less liquid sounding' would be the term.

unless you actually consider the VAC's or ML3's as objectively dry sounding. if you do think that, then yes, the darts are relatively dryer sounding. but by no stretch of my imagination are the VAC's or ML3's dry in any way. they are both the dictionary definition of 'liquid' sounding.......to a fault. so something less liquid sounding is most likely still liquid to a degree.....not......dry. dry=absence of water=missing something. verses less of something.

and there is a world full of much dryer amplifiers than the darTZeel's......which are the acknowledged 'liquid sounding' (not warm.....'liquid') kings of the solid state world.

and i'm the guy with a grip on neutral; remember? does neutral = dry to you? it seems that is what you are saying. I would have no issue with you saying that the darts are more neutral than the VAC's. liquid/dry is a bit different than warm/neutral but you get my point.

if someone said my sister is sluttier than their sister, that says their sister is also a slut. and that is how I see your use of the word dry and why I don't like it and consider it improperly used. it's a derogatory term tube lovers throw around.

we all have choices about words we choose to associate with products. they matter. and this obviously struck a nerve with me.

hopefully I have done a better job of explaining my perspective. I will have no further comment on this subject.