KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, likely the Zu Definitions VI will be out before the trickle down Devores. At $20-25k, they'll surely tickle you at the v least. Surely worth a consideration?

AG Duos has a good chance of wowing you.

 

[tima]

And what if AG isn't the bees knees? I'll likely wait for John Devore's trickle down O Reference technology to catch up with his future designs. This may be disappointing for a forum journey where a "happily ever after" ending is enjoyed, but $50,000 is an enormous sum in this hobby and it has to be 100% right for me to jump. I'm not suffering with what I have currently - that I *can* confirm.

Nice job. Even though you started by 'wanting a change' , there's nothing wrong in reconfirming the choice you started from. And likewise your preference for tubes. Learning/understanding one's likes has has value in itself. And fun for you and we vicarious observers.

 

[the sound of Tao]

For @tima, @Tango, and all:

You guys asked for an executive summary - well I've been thinking much about my auditions in light of many of the comments here, discussions with audiophile friends, as well as reflecting on my audio goals. I started out seemingly wanting something simple - tone, dynamics, and soundstage with a lesser focus on coherency and bass. What I've discovered is that I'm a tube guy at heart and its very difficult for me to go in a different direction.

I can say the best audition I've had is the YG Sonja 2.2 on ARC/D'agostino in Alma Audio's incredible room. The issue is the Sonja just isn't a tube-friendly speaker and that gnaws at me. While I feel the combo I heard works very well - its one I don't value enough to spend on in this hobby. Also, hearing other YGs in different setups in the past few months I feel there are fewer paths for success. I had considered Lamm hybrids for example - but what if they don't work? Then I'm stuck auditioning high power SS monos - not my cup of tea- and at substantial cost. In fact, DarTZeel is my favorite SS amp and the 108 won't work here. So even at this league of gear, there are compromises. I'll also note that long term I have always returned to tubes. Therefore, while I really enjoy the YG sound I feel the risk is too high as is the potential $ investment.

The Rockports, Wilsons, and Stenheims were good but not actionable. I can see others liking each for various reasons- a Harbeth lover would go to Stenheim first, a transparency enthusiast might prefer a Rockport, and a guy who loves dynamics and big bass of course will go to the Wilson line. But none of these relaxed me in the way two speakers did - YG and Gamut, two very different designs but where I feel their superior coherency is the difference. I think the reason for this is that Zu and Devore have been in my stable for so long and I'm used to "flow" and lack of mechanical nature that @bonzo75 refers to often. Perhaps I need to grab @Ron Resnick and go hear the big Gamuts after all.

I also have an affinity for horns and while it took forever to hear a pair again - got good exposure at the Long Beach show and learned that horn bass may not be for me but that they do soundstage well and are known for tone and dynamics. Therefore, I decided to move forward with an Avantgarde session - whom I originally had passed up for Cessaro - and may ironically be the best for my listening habits. Bass quality has more importance to me now that it did when I started this journey.

And what if AG isn't the bees knees? I'll likely wait for John Devore's trickle down O Reference technology to catch up with his future designs. This may be disappointing for a forum journey where a "happily ever after" ending is enjoyed, but $50,000 is an enormous sum in this hobby and it has to be 100% right for me to jump. I'm not suffering with what I have currently - that I *can* confirm.

Super wise Keith. For $50k there should just be no doubts or just becauses, patience is a friend.

 

[asiufy]

A few points.
The 108 will absolutely work with YGs. It wiped the floor with a 200lbs monster amp a few years ago (back in Brazil), on Sonja 1.3. Room was about twice the size of our current one.
And if you gotta have tubes, and I understand if you must, a tube preamp is a perfectly valid option. LUXMAN or Linnenberg (or Lamm, very likely) SS with a tube preamp will sound fantastic.
It'll give you that "flow" you talk of, plus the warm tone that you like. It won't boom, with incredible dynamics.
Just my R$500 (two cents in brazilian currency!)

Alex

 

[Rob181]

A few points.
The 108 will absolutely work with YGs. Alex

I bet the Mark 2 of the 108 version would be better again - with a tube pre - now that does sound interesting.

 

[bonzo75]

Keith, I started out on a dream speaker search to buy. Not to just audition or compare gear. That time I was not into analog search as well.

One thing I learned is that before a dream speaker search, I and fellow searchers searched only in and near our purchase bracket. This never allowed us to see across the spectrum of designs and price. And we assumed, and indeed found, spending more resulted in a difference we interpreted as better. And people went from AR ref 3 to 5 to 5SE and occasionally across AR and VTL and CJ and so forth. Speakers kept getting bigger.

The more I searched, the more I saw radically different approaches... And met the people who had implemented them, each one told me he was doing this 25 to 40 years, and this was the best approach. Within an approach, there is a bit of price upgrade. Across approaches, price is irrelevant. So if I like devores with 12w 2a3 for what it does, comparing it to TAD with boulder is not getting me anything, though spending on the General's system is. Yes there were always some I liked in the SS low efficiency approach , like YG, Zellaton, Apogees, a certain implementation of Avalon, etc.

But just recently, when Gian asked me what I feel like buying, my answers were clear in my mind... With a lot of money and willingness to spend it would be 3 horns that I know (Mostly bespoke)... and in the absence of madness, it would be vintage tannoys or devore orangutans. Based on some videos the Altecs need more investigation as an alternative to tannoy.

Priced between the two approaches, my friend's Avalon system that I wrote about and the horns Universum, other DIY bespoke horns

The above hierarchy of approaches I described for myself is for classical. Irrespective of the price, the 15 inch tannoy gold with a Luxman integrated is the most I have enjoyed rock and blues on since leaving Mike's. We listened for 8 hours loud with zero fatigue. The guy also owned great originals of rock, blues, jazz.

Yes the Zellaton and the YG for example would sound better than my tannoy/devore approach on some things. But if I had that ability I would buy one of those 3 horn systems slam dunk (and still have money left over)

The other thing is that this is dictated by music tastes and the way one listens. For rock and electronica, I would never suggest that horns approach. It would be for classical jazz and blues primarily.

The second is, I mentioned this earlier when Lansche came up... It is really one of the best cones and has great mids, soundstage, and integrated bass (active on some models, I don't know if on all, I heard their 20k and 65k euro models). They work on tubes too, you could run them on 100w jadis integrated.

However, the problem for me, after hearing the devore in the same room, is that devores do transparency to recordings much better. You are much more there in every concert. Yes, on an individual record, the Lansche are much more impressive, but as you change records, I prefer the devores. The concert just flows. The Lansche does more heft, better highs, wider stage and all that. However people have different listening habits and I could easily have done with the 20k euro Lansche otherwise. So I think you should audition that as this might not be a factor for you.

 

[bonzo75]

Super wise Keith. For $50k there should just be no doubts or just becauses, patience is a friend.

I am sorry but recently an Avalon compass diamonds system, a bit less than 50k was described as a value system on WBF, and not a dream speaker

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am sorry but recently an Avalon compass diamonds system, a bit less than 50k was described as a value system on WBF, and not a dream speaker

My values don’t stretch quite that far Ked let alone my bank account lol I know you more than most are patient

 

[morricab]

Keith, I started out on a dream speaker search to buy. Not to just audition or compare gear. That time I was not into analog search as well.

One thing I learned is that before a dream speaker search, I and fellow searchers searched only in and near our purchase bracket. This never allowed us to see across the spectrum of designs and price. And we assumed, and indeed found, spending more resulted in a difference we interpreted as better. And people went from AR ref 3 to 5 to 5SE and occasionally across AR and VTL and CJ and so forth. Speakers kept getting bigger.

The more I searched, the more I saw radically different approaches... And met the people who had implemented them, each one told me he was doing this 25 to 40 years, and this was the best approach. Within an approach, there is a bit of price upgrade. Across approaches, price is irrelevant. So if I like devores with 12w 2a3 for what it does, comparing it to TAD with boulder is not getting me anything, though spending on the General's system is. Yes there were always some I liked in the SS low efficiency approach , like YG, Zellaton, Apogees, a certain implementation of Avalon, etc.

But just recently, when Gian asked me what I feel like buying, my answers were clear in my mind... With a lot of money and willingness to spend it would be 3 horns that I know (Mostly bespoke)... and in the absence of madness, it would be vintage tannoys or devore orangutans. Based on some videos the Altecs need more investigation as an alternative to tannoy.

Priced between the two approaches, my friend's Avalon system that I wrote about and the horns Universum, other DIY bespoke horns

The above hierarchy of approaches I described for myself is for classical. Irrespective of the price, the 15 inch tannoy gold with a Luxman integrated is the most I have enjoyed rock and blues on since leaving Mike's. We listened for 8 hours loud with zero fatigue. The guy also owned great originals of rock, blues, jazz.

Yes the Zellaton and the YG for example would sound better than my tannoy/devore approach on some things. But if I had that ability I would buy one of those 3 horn systems slam dunk.

The other thing is that this is dictated by music tastes and the way one listens. For rock and electronica, I would never suggest that horns approach. It would be for classical jazz primarily.

The second is, I mentioned this earlier when Lansche came up... It is really one of the best cones and has great mids, soundstage, and integrated bass (active on some models, I don't know if on all, I heard their 20k and 65k euro models). They work on tubes too, you could run them on 100w jadis integrated.

However, the problem for me, after hearing the devore in the same room, is that devores do transparency to recordings much better. You are much more there in every concert. Yes, on an individual record, the Lansche are much more impressive, but as you change records, I prefer the devores. The concert just flows. The Lansche does more heft, better highs, wider stage and all that. However people have different listening habits and I could easily have done with the 20k euro Lansche otherwise. So I think you should audition that as this might not be a factor for you.

There are a nice used pair of Dynamikks in Germany that use the GPA version of the Altec 604E, which could make a great Tannoy alternative..

 

[morricab]

There are a nice used pair of Dynamikks in Germany that use the GPA version of the Altec 604E, which could make a great Tannoy alternative..

www.cjm-audio.de

 

[Al M.]

The other thing is that this is dictated by music tastes and the way one listens. For rock and electronica, I would never suggest that horns approach. It would be for classical jazz and blues primarily.

Great that that's cleared up. For me, a speaker system must do all things well, classical, jazz, rock, electronica etc. I am primarily into classical and jazz, but hey, a speaker system must be able to rock and do electronica. So no horns for me, then.

 

[bonzo75]

Great that that's cleared up. For me, a speaker system must do all things well, classical, jazz, rock, electronica etc. I am primarily into classical and jazz, but hey, a speaker system must be able to rock and do electronica. So no horns for me, then.

No one said it doesn't. Just what the primary should be. If you want to look at a speaker that does all things equally well and better than the rest, build a new one.

 

[bonzo75]

But no horns for you, for sure.

 

[Al M.]

No one said it doesn't. Just what the primary should be. If you want to look at a speaker that does all things equally well and better than the rest, build a new one.

There are speakers that do all things well. There is no speaker that does everything equally well and better than the rest, period. As I said before, if I had generous funds available, I would want to have at least two different rooms, a large and a medium-sized one, with two different speaker systems. Preferably three rooms, actually.

To think that one speaker system in one single room can do it all perfectly, is a delusion.

Why do many great concert venues have at least two halls, a large one and a small one? There's an obvious reason.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Al, my room at 48x18 is big enough to host two systems. I can't say I'm not tempted to run horns at the other end. My Zus would have the edge on classic rock, prog, electric jazz, fusion, some electronica. Horns on classical, jazz, other acoustic, minimalist/audiophile electronic. It's a concept w plenty of merits. And certainly my room could easily accommodate two sets of spkrs.

 

[morricab]

Great that that's cleared up. For me, a speaker system must do all things well, classical, jazz, rock, electronica etc. I am primarily into classical and jazz, but hey, a speaker system must be able to rock and do electronica. So no horns for me, then.

If no horns for you then you should stop going to live concerts...regardless of genre .

 

[morricab]

Al, my room at 48x18 is big enough to host two systems. I can't say I'm not tempted to run horns at the other end. My Zus would have the edge on classic rock, prog, electric jazz, fusion, some electronica. Horns on classical, jazz, other acoustic, minimalist/audiophile electronic. It's a concept w plenty of merits. And certainly my room could easily accommodate two sets of spkrs.

The right horns will do prog, which I also love, just fine. Btw. If you want some proggy jazz check out Nik Baertsch on ECM label.

 

[KeithR]

Don’t understand why horns can’t do rock at all- that hasn’t been my experience.

 

[KeithR]

In fact, the Wall on Trios w/basshorns got a standing ovation at a show once- never seen that repeated in 15 years.

 

[ddk]

There are speakers that do all things well. There is no speaker that does everything equally well and better than the rest, period. As I said before, if I had generous funds available, I would want to have at least two different rooms, a large and a medium-sized one, with two different speaker systems. Preferably three rooms, actually.

To think that one speaker system in one single room can do it all perfectly, is a delusion.

Why do many great concert venues have at least two halls, a large one and a small one? There's an obvious reason.

IME the problem you're talking about is a function of the electronics and sources and not speakers. If a speaker can play classical it can easily play other genre too and do it all as you put. Of course if one is after the nightclub experience and/or nausea inspiring bass is a very different thing altogether .

david