Trying the ZR Acoustics Panels

[Cellcbern]

FYI - the ZR Acoustics panels diffuse/disturb the air that sound waves ride on at a micro ("molecular") level, independent of frequency, preventing sound reflections. If there are no reflections there can be no room modes including bass modes, standing waves, etc. It follows that if you have enough square footage of ZR Acoustic panels on the wall you don't need bass traps because low frequency sound waves are no longer being reflected to any significant extent. That is essentially the manufacturers explanation and again, I am not qualified to analyze/confirm/refute that explanation nor am I interested in doing so. I am satisfied that my ears tell me that the ZR panels are superior to the RPG BAD and GIK Acoustics panels that they replaced. When it comes specifically to bass the outer two panels (see photo) that I have pressed up in the wall corners appear to have diminished whatever bass pressure buildup occurs there. Even with just the four panels (I am ordering more) the bass is deeper, tighter, more tuneful, and clearer. It also follows from how these panels work that the measurement tools and terminology of conventional sound wave based room acoustics don't apply, which leaves the conventional acoustics experts a little lost. I have read explanations from several of them as to why the ZR panels can't work, but of course they explained why in terms of sound waves, panel depth and other concepts that don't apply. Interesting situation - that's the position a disruptive technology puts you in. Here are links to testimonials and a list of clients. If the ZR panels don't work as advertised then all of these folks (and yours truly) have been duped:

Delta H Design

Check out SFSCS.org

deltahdesign.com

Delta H Design

Check out SFSCS.org

deltahdesign.com

 

[rbbert]

Delta H Design

Check out SFSCS.org

deltahdesign.com

Prices are on the Product Comparison Sheet (scroll down). Ordering is by phone or email.

Since the prices are no longer on the Web site, can you tell us how much each of your panels cost?

 

[Cellcbern]

Very strange because I keep getting a blank page on Safari or Chrome.

They aren't cheap. Each of the four 2' square panels in the photo of my listening room cost $300.00 plus shipping and probably another $100.00 ea. to put in a floater frame for protection.

 

[sbnx]

What material do you believe the panels are made. They look like a rigid foam.

 

[Cellcbern]

What material do you believe the panels are made. They look like a rigid foam.

They are CNC cut into what seems like mdf and wood.

 

[Nuprin]

So 4 panels are going to run roughly $1,600 after framing plus shipping. I know @spiritofmusic is very skeptical but if @Cellcbern had other popular brands of treatment and likes these better I will give them a try. Talking to the people at acoustic fields, they told me I needed a minimum of 8 of their Carbon Absorbers which are 30"x60" and 12" deep (that's an issue) at $800 each before shipping just as a start to tame the low bass frequencies alone.

 

[Nuprin]

@Cellcbern

Have you played any live recordings of larger venues or bigger orchestral recordings? Wondering how those sound with the ZR panels compared to what you had previously.

Also found this review in Stereophile:

The Fifth Element #90

As a film title, Quantizing Hanson Hsu might not rank up there with Kissing Jessica Stein, but we work with what we have to work with. Hanson Hsu is the principal designer at Delta H Design, Inc., an acoustics and architecture firm based in Marina del Rey, California. Though he dabbles in some...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Cellcbern]

@Cellcbern

Have you played any live recordings of larger venues or bigger orchestral recordings? Wondering how those sound with the ZR panels compared to what you had previously.

Also found this review in Stereophile:

The Fifth Element #90

As a film title, Quantizing Hanson Hsu might not rank up there with Kissing Jessica Stein, but we work with what we have to work with. Hanson Hsu is the principal designer at Delta H Design, Inc., an acoustics and architecture firm based in Marina del Rey, California. Though he dabbles in some...

www.stereophile.com

Yes. The improvements are consistent across all genres of music. Again, I only have half the minimum wall coverage I need. I expect further improvements when I increase the number of panels behind the speakers.

 

[sbnx]

So 4 panels are going to run roughly $1,600 after framing plus shipping. I know @spiritofmusic is very skeptical but if @Cellcbern had other popular brands of treatment and likes these better I will give them a try. Talking to the people at acoustic fields, they told me I needed a minimum of 8 of their Carbon Absorbers which are 30"x60" and 12" deep (that's an issue) at $800 each before shipping just as a start to tame the low bass frequencies alone.

This seems like a sound decision. At the very least they will work as diffusers and they look really cool. I am hoping you can post some before/after measurements. This will show how much improvement they make in the bass.

 

[spiritofmusic]

60" x 30" x 12", x 8 no.
Now we're talking. Re the physics at least, quantum or no quantum.

 

[Cellcbern]

So 4 panels are going to run roughly $1,600 after framing plus shipping. I know @spiritofmusic is very skeptical but if @Cellcbern had other popular brands of treatment and likes these better I will give them a try. Talking to the people at acoustic fields, they told me I needed a minimum of 8 of their Carbon Absorbers which are 30"x60" and 12" deep (that's an issue) at $800 each before shipping just as a start to tame the low bass frequencies alone.

 

[Cellcbern]

FYI: This article provides more insight into how the technology was developed and how it works.

https://sonicscoop.com/2012/12/12/delta-h-designs-zr-acoustics-removing-the-room-from-the-room/

 

[MTB Vince]

While I've read quite a bit about ZR Acoustics purported technology break-through and how it is claimed to function over the past 5 years, I've yet to see a single example of before and after measurements that support their claims. If the broadband efficacy of these panels matches up with the claims, why aren't there even any REW measurements supporting this out there after a decade of practical application of the product. Show me waterfall plots pre and post treatment. RT60 and impulse response measurements? You can color me skeptical...

 

[Cellcbern]

While I've read quite a bit about ZR Acoustics purported technology break-through and how it is claimed to function over the past 5 years, I've yet to see a single example of before and after measurements that support their claims. If the broadband efficacy of these panels matches up with the claims, why aren't there even any REW measurements supporting this out there after a decade of practical application of the product. Show me waterfall plots pre and post treatment. RT60 and impulse response measurements? You can color me skeptical...

I'm sure that there are measurements, although what is measured and how may be different from conventional acoustics. Also possible that the company views measurements as part of its trade secrets and therefore requires customers to sign NDA's. Hard to imagine that studio customers don't do before and after measurements, particularly a place like McGill University for example which is famous for acoustics and provided acoustical tests/data for Soundstage reviews for many years.

McGill University

Multi Grammy Award-winning Engineer and Producer Richard King, and recording engineer program founder Wieslaw Woszczyk of McGill’s schulich School of Music chose ZR Acoustics’ quantum technology for the renovation of control room A. One of the oldest and well-respected Tone-Meister inspired...

deltahdesign.com

 

[Nuprin]

For

While I've read quite a bit about ZR Acoustics purported technology break-through and how it is claimed to function over the past 5 years, I've yet to see a single example of before and after measurements that support their claims. If the broadband efficacy of these panels matches up with the claims, why aren't there even any REW measurements supporting this out there after a decade of practical application of the product. Show me waterfall plots pre and post treatment. RT60 and impulse response measurements? You can color me skeptical...

I will take some measurements before and after if I end up ordering the ZR Micro Panels. For sure, the room currently has a very small sweet spot with no bass in the middle of the room and boomy 3 feet out from any wall.

Spent 3 days moving speakers and sub around my room and measuring/hearing for the best location so I will compare with the same placement first but it will be interesting once the panels are applied how much the position of the speakers and sub will affect performance and measurements.

 

[rbbert]

I don't think $300-400 per panel is unreasonable, depending on performance of course. In a few months after I can get my listening room back to "normal" I will seriously consider some of these panels

 

[Cellcbern]

This seems like a sound decision. At the very least they will work as diffusers and they look really cool. I am hoping you can post some before/after measurements. This will show how much improvement they make in the bass.

They do not provide diffusion in the conventional sense - they eliminate reflections.

 

[Nuprin]

@Cellcbern

You mentioned you’ve tweaked your system extensively. May I ask what your system consists of and the room dimensions? Curious to know why you chose the components you did and what other brands you considered before you decided on your system.

My speakers are rear ported so I don’t think I can push them right against the wall/panel.

 

[Cellcbern]

@Cellcbern

You mentioned you’ve tweaked your system extensively. May I ask what your system consists of and the room dimensions? Curious to know why you chose the components you did and what other brands you considered before you decided on your system.

My speakers are rear ported so I don’t think I can push them right against the wall/panel.

Listening Room is 16' x 9.5' x 8' high.

System summary: Modified Pathos Acoustics TT RR (Dueland Cast PIO Tinned Copper & Mundorf silver/gold/oil, caps), Vishay Z-foil resistors; vintage Alps "Black Beauty" volume pot; Stage III Concepts hookup wire, Bybee Music Rails, Yamamoto teflon tube sockets, etc. on Marigo Mystery feet. Bache Audio Metro 001 speakers with 3/4" bamboo cabinet and upgraded crossover, on Isoacoustics Gaia footers. Modwright Marantz SA8005 SACD/CD player on Townshend Seismic Sink and ASI Top Line feet with 1950's Tungsol long black plate 5687 tubes; GEC U52 5U4G rectifier in the Modwright PS 9.0 power supply; Audio Magic Liquid Air umbilical; Verastarr Grand Illusion speaker cables; Townshend Fractal F1 interconnects; Verastarr, Lessloss CMARC, and Isoclean AC cables. Bybee Stealth AC conditioner, dedicated JPS Labs 20A line and breaker box, Oyaide R-1 outlet, and EP-2050 on main panel. ZR Acoustics and RPG BAD acoustic panels.

Component choices were dictated by room size (can't have huge speakers and sub 30 hz bass) and financial limitations. My listening bias favors musical attributes like accurate timbre and tonality over imaging, sound-staging, etc., although my system delivers both. My strategy has been to achieve world class audio performance by having top rated, high value components modified/upgraded. I believe this is the single most cost effective route to true high end sound. The Pathos and Unison amps and Marantz player were purchased used at Audiogon and modified/upgraded. The cables and most of the tweaks were purchased used at Audiogon or Ebay. My Bache speakers which I purchased new, have the optional 3/4" bamboo cabinet (which sounds better than the standard mdf) and the crossover components from the company's top of the line offerings. Note that I prefer integrated amps to separates because they take up less space and require fewer cables. With the modifications they are superb and do not leave me wishing for separates. I have not tried a lot of different components. I've read reviews, listened where possible, and made a decision. With cables and tweaks on the other hand I have tried many different brands and models before settling on what I have. Audio dealers who will let you audition a lot of different cables and accessories in your home are few and far between. One of the things I really like about a site like Audiogon is that you can buy something, try it, and if it doesn't work for you turn around and offer it for sale.

Note that it doesn't matter whether your speakers are front or rear ported. The ZR Acoustics panels work best with the speakers right up against the panels/wall.

 

[sbnx]

They do not provide diffusion in the conventional sense - they eliminate reflections.

Not trying to argue but sound is a wave. When a wave hits a boundary only two things can happen. Part of that wave can be transmitted (absorbed) and part of the wave can be reflected. (There is also diffraction if the object/boundary is about the same size as the wavelength) Of course sound (that we can hear) spans a range of frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz. The percent of the wave that is absorbed vs reflected is a function of frequency depending on what the material the surface is made from. If none of the sound is reflected then it is all absorbed and that is an anechoic chamber. When a wave strikes an uneven surface then the wave will be redistributed in time/space. This is diffusion. The science behind diffusers is to construct that surface such that it produces the most even polar response across a certain range of frequencies.

Now, that wave is made up of trillions of particles (Mostly nitrogen and oxygen molecules) but as I discussed there is nothing these panels are doing that would necessitate or involve quantum mechanics calculations.

I stated above. I don't doubt that their product works and it even looks great. And I think the price is reasonable. But without acoustic data I am not going to believe that it will fix issues below even 200Hz. I don't have to have certified acoustics lab data. I will take REW data from someone's room before and after install. This is not hard to do so why isn't the manufacturer publishing it?