Do Mobile Fidelity Vinyl Re-issues Have a Digital Step in the Process?

[Bergm@nn]

You made a very specific allegation and I’ve been asking you, repeatedly now, to provide evidence of the allegation. If you would prefer to provide evidence of this new restatement of your claim (“He's said on more than one occasion that he believes that digital in any part of the production of vinyl is sub-optimal/ detrimental etc to final audio quality, and that he can hear it.”), rather than the original formulation of your claim, that is fine too.

The bulk of your post is precisely an effort to wriggle off the hook of proving the specific claim you alleged.

Writing that you believe I would not accept proof of Michael saying what you are claiming he said even if you could find it is silly — and pure wriggle. Show me the proof that Michael said what you claim, and I will accept it.

You're missing the point Ron. I'm not being dismissive but I don't care whether you accept it or not. Your request for proof is very telling even if you can't see that yourself.

A lot of people who have watched, read and listened to Fremer over a period of time will recognise how I've characterised what Fremer has said and claimed. If you can't/ don't, then okay.

I'll drip feed in examples as and when I find them. There's no big 'aha here it is'.

Mountain out of molehill is what I think you're trying to make. Your reasons are your own.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Sorry I don't agree that this is 'snarky'. Its my opinion, subjective as it is, take it or leave it. I've used as loose language as Fremer uses so I don't think this is inappropriate.

Lets get something straight - I'm poking fun at Fremer but don't misinterpret this as anything more. I actually like the guy and by and large agree with him and applaud his championing of vinyl over the last few decades. What I don't buy is his insistence that AAA is always best.



Err show me where I'm wriggling. I'm not on any hook. I've characterised what I've heard Fremer say here and there over a long period of time.

He's said on more than one occasion that he believes that digital in any part of the production of vinyl is sub-optimal/ detrimental etc to final audio quality, and that he can hear it. All this storm over Mofi demonstrates is that he couldn't. It's not 'gotcha' or anything like that - its poking fun, but also in the hope that we will see a more balanced and pragmatic view now expressed on the use of various bits of technology whether they're analogue or digital.



Equally I don't think you should hide behind notions of fact finding, accuracy etc - I think your reaction says something else is on your mind and if it is just say so.



I don't believe that even if I did that you'd accept it. I'm not going to be held to a standard of evidence that others aren't. Inany case this is a forum for discussion not an inquisition or grand jury, I don't have to 'prove' anything in forensic detail. A lot of people will recognise what I'm talking about and in due course I'll find and share examples. Case in point -

howiebrou said:
I think Michael said "it is easy to tell the difference between a digital recording recorded at 96/24 and an all analog recording" in the video. He didn't mention DSD.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

You made a very specific allegation and I’ve been asking you, repeatedly now, to provide evidence of the allegation. If you would prefer to provide evidence of this new restatement of your claim (“He's said on more than one occasion that he believes that digital in any part of the production of vinyl is sub-optimal/ detrimental etc to final audio quality, and that he can hear it.”), rather than the original formulation of your claim, that is fine too.

The bulk of your post is precisely an effort to wriggle off the hook of proving the specific claim you alleged. And that’s okay; I suspected that your original post was not scrupulously accurate.

Writing that you believe I would not accept proof of Michael saying what you are claiming he said even if you could find it is silly — and pure wriggle. Show me the proof that Michael said what you claim, and I will accept it.

Howiebrou’s quote of Michael, assuming it’s accurate, is interesting, but, as you correctly point out, is limited to 24/96.

Nothing else is on my mind. Yes, I jumped on you for proof to a standard we do not ordinarily expect in our casual discourse here.

I have a lot of respect for Michael’s monumental role in keeping alive the analog/vinyl faith, and for his intellectual honesty as a reviewer. I simply did not want to see his character casually impugned.

 

[Bergm@nn]

I have a lot of respect for Michael’s monumental role in keeping alive the analog/vinyl faith, and for his intellectual honesty as a reviewer. I simply did not want to see his character casually impugned.

You and me both, as I said -

Lets get something straight - I'm poking fun at Fremer but don't misinterpret this as anything more. I actually like the guy and by and large agree with him and applaud his championing of vinyl over the last few decades. What I don't buy is his insistence that AAA is always best.

 

[Audire]

I make fun of Fremer (but really enjoy what he says most of the time), but he was not fooled by digital records. He states as much beginning at app 44 minutes in on this video made in 2020. The entire video is worth listening too.

Webinar: State of the Vinyl Industry with Michael Fremer

 

[facten]

I make fun of Fremer (but really enjoy what he says most of the time), but he was not fooled by digital records. He states as much beginning at app 44 minutes in on this video made in 2020. The entire video is worth listening too.

Webinar: State of the Vinyl Industry with Michael Fremer

In fact he references comments from a mastering engineer (Part Time Audiophile article) that it is possible for a digital master to sound better than the master itself ; and he suggest that folks hear digital mastered vinyl before simply dismissing it, that most new vinyl recordings are digital , that it needs to be accepted , and that there are some incredibly good digital recordings and when put on vinyl sound even more incredible

 

[Bergm@nn]

This is nothing to do with my post about Fremer up thread except its an interesting interview and mastering studio walk around with Fremer and Eric Boulanger of The Bakery who worked with Doug Sax at the Mastering Lab.

There's some interesting moments when Eric is talking about cutting from digital and whether digital or vinyl sounds best (From 21:40 for about 10 mins) its a really interesting watch.

AnalogPlanet Visits Fabled Los Angeles Recording And Mastering Studios - YouTube

 

[davidavdavid]

It took me a while to do my epistle to this whole issue.
After reading my piece scroll down to the comments where I replied to the initial comment

"Obfuscation via omission" "If they know it NOW, they knew it THEN"

My take on what is to be known as MoFi-Gate:
https://www.dagogo.com/the-mofi-predicament/
Please feel free to comment at the link above and do share with others.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It took me a while to do my epistle to this whole issue.
After reading my piece scroll down to the comments where I replied to the initial comment

"Obfuscation via omission" "If they know it NOW, they knew it THEN"

My take on what is to be known as MoFi-Gate:
https://www.dagogo.com/the-mofi-predicament/
Please feel free to comment at the link above and do share with others.

Thanks David for your epistle to the purist vinyl apostles. I agree with all your points. This level of deliberate and consistent company wide deceit wouldn’t go unpunished in many other industries and the same should apply here. Retroactive and prospective declaration of the truth isn’t remotely the solution to this problem but a small initial step.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

St. Peter preached the epistles to the apostles looking like that.

Withnail & I (1987) clip with quote St. Peter preached the epistles to the apostles looking like that. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect...

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[oeno]

St. Peter preached the epistles to the apostles looking like that.

Withnail & I (1987) clip with quote St. Peter preached the epistles to the apostles looking like that. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect...

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The digital front page of the Washington Post just put this up: https://www.washingtonpost.com/music/2022/08/05/mofi-records-analog-digital-scandal/


Excerpt:

Mike Esposito still won’t say who gave him the tip about the records. But on July 14, he went public with an explosive claim.

In a sometimes halting video posted to the YouTube channel of his Phoenix record shop, the ‘In’ Groove, Esposito said that “pretty reliable sources” told him that MoFi (Mobile Fidelity), the Sebastopol, Calif., company that has prided itself on using original master tapes for its pricey reissues, had actually been using digital files in its production chain. In the world of audiophiles — where provenance is everything and the quest is to get as close to the sound of an album’s original recording as possible — digital is considered almost unholy. And using digital while claiming not to is the gravest sin a manufacturer can commit.


There was immediate pushback to Esposito’s video, including from some of the bigger names in the passionate audio community.

Shane Buettner, owner of Intervention Records, another company in the reissue business, defended MoFi on the popular message board moderated by mastering engineer Steve Hoffman. He remembered running into one of the company’s engineers at a recording studio working with a master tape. “I know their process and it’s legit,” he wrote. Michael Fremer, the dean of audiophile writing, was less measured. He slammed Esposito for irresponsibly spreading rumors and said his own unnamed source told him the record store owner was wrong. “Will speculative click bait YouTube videos claiming otherwise be taken down after reading this?” he tweeted.
But at MoFi’s headquarters in Sebastopol, John Wood knew the truth. The company’s executive vice president of product development felt crushed as he watched Esposito’s video. He has worked at the company for more than 26 years and, like most of his colleagues, championed its much lauded direct-from-master chain. Wood could hear the disappointment as Esposito, while delivering his report, also said that some of MoFi’s albums were among his favorites. So Wood picked up the phone, called Esposito and suggested he fly to California for a tour. It’s an invite he would later regret.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The digital front page of the Washington Post just put this up: https://www.washingtonpost.com/music/2022/08/05/mofi-records-analog-digital-scandal/


Excerpt:

Mike Esposito still won’t say who gave him the tip about the records. But on July 14, he went public with an explosive claim.

In a sometimes halting video posted to the YouTube channel of his Phoenix record shop, the ‘In’ Groove, Esposito said that “pretty reliable sources” told him that MoFi (Mobile Fidelity), the Sebastopol, Calif., company that has prided itself on using original master tapes for its pricey reissues, had actually been using digital files in its production chain. In the world of audiophiles — where provenance is everything and the quest is to get as close to the sound of an album’s original recording as possible — digital is considered almost unholy. And using digital while claiming not to is the gravest sin a manufacturer can commit.


There was immediate pushback to Esposito’s video, including from some of the bigger names in the passionate audio community.

Shane Buettner, owner of Intervention Records, another company in the reissue business, defended MoFi on the popular message board moderated by mastering engineer Steve Hoffman. He remembered running into one of the company’s engineers at a recording studio working with a master tape. “I know their process and it’s legit,” he wrote. Michael Fremer, the dean of audiophile writing, was less measured. He slammed Esposito for irresponsibly spreading rumors and said his own unnamed source told him the record store owner was wrong. “Will speculative click bait YouTube videos claiming otherwise be taken down after reading this?” he tweeted.
But at MoFi’s headquarters in Sebastopol, John Wood knew the truth. The company’s executive vice president of product development felt crushed as he watched Esposito’s video. He has worked at the company for more than 26 years and, like most of his colleagues, championed its much lauded direct-from-master chain. Wood could hear the disappointment as Esposito, while delivering his report, also said that some of MoFi’s albums were among his favorites. So Wood picked up the phone, called Esposito and suggested he fly to California for a tour. It’s an invite he would later regret.

thank you. tried the link but could not open the article. a friend sent me a text link that did open right up.

i guess this is real news.

very good summation, worth reading. especially for the quotes from MoFi.

 

[Bergm@nn]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/music/2022/08/05/mofi-records-analog-digital-scandal/

Very balanced article. Appropriate credit given to Esposito.

 

[dminches]

This is not to excuse anything MoFi has been doing in deceiving the public as to how their LPs are produced. But, they are not the only ones.

Craft Recordings, which produces a lot of fine LPs, just announced a Creedence Clearwater Revival release of a 1970 RAH concert. Here is the description:

The debut release of the highly-anticipated recording of Creedence Clearwater Revival at London’s Royal Albert Hall. More than 50 years after the legendary 1970 show, the original multitrack tapes have been meticulously restored and mixed by GRAMMY®-winning producer Giles Martin and engineer Sam Okell. This 180g LP was mastered by Miles Showell at Abbey Road Studios using half-speed technologyfor the highest-quality listening experience. Setlist includes “Fortunate Son,” “Proud Mary,” “Bad Moon Rising,” and more.

The first-time official release of the legendary live performance which has long been part of CCR’s lore
• 1-LP; 180-gram black vinyl
• This LP edition is mastered at 33 1/3 RPM
• Concert sound mixed and restored by Giles Martin and Sam Okell.
• Vinyl mastered by Miles Showell at Abbey Road Studios using an exacting half-speed technique for superior sound quality

All these words want you to think that this is AAA but my guess is that it is not since it doesn’t say all analog. However, they are hoping people will fill in the their own blanks and conclude that.

The industry needs to stop this BS and tell us what they are selling.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

This is not to excuse anything MoFi has been doing in deceiving the public as to how their LPs are produced. But, they are not the only ones.

Craft Recordings, which produces a lot of fine LPs, just announced a Creedence Clearwater Revival release of a 1970 RAH concert. Here is the description:

The debut release of the highly-anticipated recording of Creedence Clearwater Revival at London’s Royal Albert Hall. More than 50 years after the legendary 1970 show, the original multitrack tapes have been meticulously restored and mixed by GRAMMY®-winning producer Giles Martin and engineer Sam Okell. This 180g LP was mastered by Miles Showell at Abbey Road Studios using half-speed technologyfor the highest-quality listening experience. Setlist includes “Fortunate Son,” “Proud Mary,” “Bad Moon Rising,” and more.

The first-time official release of the legendary live performance which has long been part of CCR’s lore
• 1-LP; 180-gram black vinyl
• This LP edition is mastered at 33 1/3 RPM
• Concert sound mixed and restored by Giles Martin and Sam Okell.
• Vinyl mastered by Miles Showell at Abbey Road Studios using an exacting half-speed technique for superior sound quality

All these words want you to think that this is AAA but my guess is that it is not since it doesn’t say all analog. However, they are hoping people will fill in the their own blanks and conclude that.

The industry needs to stop this BS and tell us what they are selling.

I would agree entirely if that Craft Recordings LP turns out to be digitally sourced because there verbiage is absolutely *suggestive* of all analogue transfer - it is back to point I made right at the very start of the Mofi debacle - the spirit and intent is the fundamental principle guiding guilt or innocence regardless of nuances of the exact written word.

 

[dminches]

I would agree entirely if that Craft Recordings LP turns out to be digitally sourced because there verbiage is absolutely *suggestive* of all analogue transfer - it is back to point I made right at the very start of the Mofi debacle - the spirit and intent is the fundamental principle guiding guilt or innocence regardless of nuances of the exact written word.

I have to believe it is digitally sourced. To contrast, this is their description of the Coltrane “Lush Life” small batch:

All-analog mastering by Bernie Grundman from the original master tapes
• Pressed at RTI utilizing Neotech’s VR900 compound
• Featuring liner notes from GRAMMY®-winning music historian, Ashley Kahn
• Housed in a foil-stamped, linen-wrapped slipcase
• Numbered and limited to 1,000 worldwide

 

[Audire]

I’m glad the scandal came to light. Mofi lied to the audio community for over a decade and from what I can see still keeping all the money they made during their deceptive era. IMO there’s been no genuine remorse.

On top of this, they still aren’t telling the entire truth as some of their vinyl is cut using DSD64 masters (ex. here.) and not the DSD256 masters as they claim in their “new” website photo seen here. It’s simple to change a photo to “fully” clarify what they are actually doing.

Take the money and run. MoFi is sitting sitting back laughing at the audiophile community.

 

[Fsonicsmith]

​

As the article mentioned through a quote, anyone who believed 40,000 copies of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" were all done through the "one-step" process needs help. They obviously don't understand the limitations of analogue tape. The truth was there for anyone to see if they put two and two together. Put differently, most of us who are vinyl fans knew that digital was being used. Fremer wrote about this again, again, and again. Were you folks that are now complaining not reading? Granted, the marketing terms and the one-step diagram ARE misleading. Absolutely. But the reality was there for all to see.
As the article also points out, MoFi got rescued/revived after BR by Music Direct and though profitable now has only a "handful of full-time employees". Being a small operation without good management leads to this type of publicity debacle.

 

[Audire]

​

As the article mentioned through a quote, anyone who believed 40,000 copies of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" were all done through the "one-step" process needs help. They obviously don't understand the limitations of analogue tape. The truth was there for anyone to see if they put two and two together. Put differently, most of us who are vinyl fans knew that digital was being used. Fremer wrote about this again, again, and again. Were you folks that are now complaining not reading? Granted, the marketing terms and the one-step diagram ARE misleading. Absolutely. But the reality was there for all to see.
As the article also points out, MoFi got rescued/revived after BR by Music Direct and though profitable now has only a "handful of full-time employees". Being a small operation without good management leads to this type of publicity debacle.

Yes, they may have needed help, but they wouldn’t have found that help on the MoFi website which was still at that time stating the album came from Master Tapes. Attempting to blame the end user for MoFi’s lies doesn't get MoFi/Music Direct off the hook.

It doesn’t matter what Fremer stated “again, again, and again” as MoFi kept saying their one-steps came from Master Tapes, “again, again, and again.” They did this every time you opened their website and one saw their diagram.

MoFi/Music Direct executed a well planned and executed fraud upon the audio community. There’s no valid excuse for what they have done. They even risked all their employees jobs in the process.

 

[microstrip]

But music lovers do not seem to care about the digital step - yesterday Bill Evans - Sunday at the Village Vanguard LP Box One-Step MFSL in sealed condition sold for usd 700 at eBay!

 

[Audire]

But music lovers do not seem to care about the digital step - yesterday Bill Evans - Sunday at the Village Vanguard LP Box One-Step MFSL in sealed condition sold for usd 700 at eBay!

So, one album selling for $700 means every music lover doesn't mind a digital step? You should have said "one music lover" didn't mind a digital step.

Also you are assuming he knows what he is buying. Does he know of the MoFi scandal? Had he ever purchased a MoFi record before? Too many questions to even say he is even a music lover … he might think it’s an investment!

Can't help that someone is willing to pay an excessive amount for Pinocchio Vinyl. Just another dummy on a string.