On Cables

Ron Resnick

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I think the selection of cables is a difficult and frustrating morass. Just because a cable is expensive doesn't mean it necessarily offers the best sound for your ears between your particular components in your particular system.

The idiosyncratic ears of a particular audiophile will find there to be an optimal cable to use to connect any two components, but it is not possible to predict in advance, based on input impedance and output impedance, or based on cable resistance/capacitance/inductance characteristics, or based on the design of the dielectric or of the cable sheath, which cable this will be. One must try different cables between each pair of components, and attempt to be largely design agnostic and brand agnostic, and to judge primarily by ear.

In other words, ideally, we would have in inventory a wide array of different models and different brands of cables. We would cycle each of these cables through every pair of components, and see which cable sounds best to each of us between every pair of components. In practice this is very difficult to accomplish.

My answer to this morass is to start with very basic cables, like Mogami or Belden. Over time I look forward to experimenting with different expensive cables between the phono stage and the line stage.

My interconnect run is 50 feet long. It just does not make sense to me to throw a dart at a list of expensive cable brands and hope that I magically pick the one I would like best sonically were I to have the opportunity to audition each of them, side by side, in my own system. For this long run I will be starting with whichever Mogami or Belden cable David recommends. (Gary Koh recommended Mogami 2791 for me for this purpose.)

I don’t have a problem with spending money on expensive cables. The problem is there is no intellectually honest or theoretically valid way to figure out, in advance, which expensive cables will sound the best to one’s own ears. There is no intellectually honest or theoretically valid way to figure out, in advance, which, if any, expensive cable will sound better to one’s own ears than a Mogami or a Belden cable.

At the medium price level I look forward to exploring Iconoclast and Absolute Fidelity cables. At the very expensive end I look forward to exploring Cardas Clear Beyond and Masterbuilt Ultra cables.
 
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Sampajanna

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15 meters is a lot of interconnect…. Maybe the longest I ever heard of. You must have a big room! That could be very, very expensive. I think you are on to something. I agree about the confusion as well. I am sure there are many, many great options. I tried a few cheaper to mid level ones to get the feel of main brands: Audioquest, Wyred, Nordost, Shunyata and various DIY local and from the internet. Once I got a feel for the subtle differences, I chose Shunyata and moved up the line. There may be better out there, but I am content and that is what matters. In essence, I followed a similar approach in learning what these cables did in my system….
 

tima

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That could be very, very expensive.

I'm old school and don't want to tune my nice electronics with lengths of wire. [Standard caveat: all wires have their sound.] I want wire with the least influence on electronics, sound and music. There are quite a few industrial wires selling for $2 - $5 a foot. For example: Belden, Canare, Gotham, Mogami. Something from this category may give you a baseline for sound and you won't break the bank trying several varieties.

Remember when cable merchants fought against the 'snake oil' skepticism about audio cables? Today it seems obvious they won that skirmish. Many audiophiles seem welded to the idea they must have audiophile cables. Ironically, when you create a scenario that requires a lengthy run of ICs, expensive cables become a liability for both you and the cable vendor. For you because what if you bet wrong? For the vendor because it causes the buyer to think about looking elsewhere.
 
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Alrainbow

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blue jeans is one I use
gary gave me an understanding to types cables and effects
its funny I know theory but was clueless to audio effects
I think tima is correct in neutrality
I’ll bet many think of an alt way

I would think a bal cable is good choice
low capacitance to me is also good as start

may I ask why so long of a run ?
 

microstrip

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(...) My answer to this morass is to start with very basic cables, like Mogami or Belden. Over time I look forward to experimenting with different expensive cables between the phono stage and the line stage.

My interconnect run is 50 feet long. It just does not make sense to me to throw a dart at a list of expensive cable brands and hope that I magically pick the one I would like best sonically were I to have the opportunity to audition each of them, side by side, in my own system. For this long run I will be starting with whichever Mogami or Belden cable David recommends. (Gary Koh recommended Mogami 2791 for me for this purpose.) (...)

Ron,

I respect your views, but I praise efficiency when taking buying decisions that can be as you said "a difficult and frustrating morass" and your perspective of going through all the steps from ground zero only assures you of a very long journey in difficult, very limiting conditions due to the needs of very long ICs.

You are not a beginner and your main choices are made in a very defined direction. Why not asking unofficially the advice of manufacturers of your equipment - this surely excludes mails or forums ;) - and borrowing middle price cables of the brands they recommend? Surely for a limited time you would need to run your system in a different layout in order to try decent size runs of cables.

I know you are a patient man, but I can imagine that after you get your room you want to listen to great music as soon as possible, and sorry in my experience the VTL 7.5 mk II + Siegfried II connected with Mogami 2791 is a waste of time and money - I own them. If you really want to use Mogami you should have got Atmasphere with their fully balanced 600 ohm mode that minimizes the effect of ICs ...
 

Ron Resnick

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may I ask why so long of a run ?

I feel fortunate to have a room adjacent to the listening room. In this adjacent room I can locate the sources and phono stage and pre-amplifiers, leaving only the amplifiers and the speakers in the listening room. I like being able to get the sources and other front-end components out of the line of fire of the speakers.
 

Tango

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15 meters speaker or interconnect cable run. That is one challenge you will keep questioning if the cables you are using are giving the best possible sound from the system you have. You will never have a chance to try top tier high end cables at the length greater than half the basketball court and compare with pro cables in your own system. The configuration just limits the potential to learn. But on positive side, it is good that the config forces you to be happy with just what available.
 
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My suggestion is reach out to daveC and demo his zenwave cables for free. ive learned through my testing that UPOCC Copper, silver and especially silver/gold alloy is where my moneys at. with Silver gold alloy cables being the winner in most of my tests. you get the clarity and speed and holographic nature of silver with the warm tone of copper.
 

microstrip

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I'm old school (...)

In my opinion even old school audiophiles know the importance of cables when tuning a system and know that many sound characteristics of cables can't be emulated with electronics or speakers. We do not tune the electronics with the cables - we tune the whole system to our preference.
 

Mike Lavigne

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15 meters speaker or interconnect cable run. That is one challenge you will keep questioning if the cables you are using are giving the best possible sound from the system you have. You will never have a chance to try top tier high end cables at the length greater than half the basketball court and compare with pro cables in your own system. The configuration just limits the potential to learn. But on positive side, it is good that the config forces you to be happy with just what available.
ive had the opportunity to compare some long (8m) cables (moderately priced, not cheap) with my reference 1.5m 'expensive' cables between my dac and pre. if the long ones are preferred or equated in that same spot, that's a pretty good indication a longer length will turn out well. while not the perfect proof of concept, there are ways you can do it to test it prior to a major investment. especially with XLR's where longer lengths tend to sound more similar.

i do agree that many times you find a long length that functions and move on and live with it. it comes down to your state of mind on the issue. we all have our own view. being able to set up our gear a certain way for our listening culture mostly is a higher priority than cable lengths. YMMV.

personally the darTZeel with it's 'zeel' interface has removed cable length from my considerations. so that's a bonus for using the darts. but it does have consequences.
 

tima

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In my opinion even old school audiophiles know the importance of cables when tuning a system and know that many sound characteristics of cables can't be emulated with electronics or speakers. We do not tune the electronics with the cables - we tune the whole system to our preference.

Okay - I'll use your language - I tune my system with wires to yield minimal impact from wires. What I had been using consistently produced certain effects that some find pleasing so they performed as advertised, but in the end they were homogenizing and not a good match for my electronics. I'm not blaming audiophile cables -- I changed my values.
 

bonzo75

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I feel fortunate to have a room adjacent to the listening room. In this adjacent room I can locate the sources and phono stage and pre-amplifiers, leaving only the amplifiers and the speakers in the listening room. I like being able to get the sources and other front-end components out of the line of fire of the speakers.

so every time you want to change the LP you will walk to the other room. That is ridiculous.

i remember visiting Dietmar recently in Germany. He is almost 80 and his drivers are well known, used by horn solutions and Aries Cerat. Excellent sound.

he had an EMT 930 next to the sitting position, so you could change LPs without having to get up. You will be at the opposite end. Hopefully you will get to sit down especially during the few months you will be tuning your system
 
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Ron Resnick

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so every time you want to change the LP you will walk to the other room. That is ridiculous.

i remember visiting Dietmar recently in Germany. He is almost 80 and his drivers are well known, used by horn solutions and Aries Cerat. Excellent sound.

he had an EMT 930 next to the sitting position, so you could change LPs without having to get up. You will be at the opposite end. Hopefully you will get to sit down especially during the few months you will be tuning your system

No - you will see. The turntable is just on the other side of the wall from the listening position. There is a large permanent opening between the two rooms.

It is literally a shorter walk from the listening position to the turntable than it would be from the listening position to the front wall if I had the equipment between the speakers. I think it’s a cool set-up.

Many audiophiles suffer a lot of angst about vibration and acoustic feedback and the like. Having the front-end components in a different room takes a lot of pressure off of those concerns.
 

Mike Lavigne

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No - you will see. The turntable is just on the other side of the wall from the listening position. There is a large permanent opening between the two rooms.

It is literally a shorter walk from the listening position to the turntable than it would be from the listening position to the front wall if I had the equipment between the speakers. I think it’s a cool set-up.

Many audiophiles suffer a lot of angst about vibration and acoustic feedback and the like. Having the front-end components in a different room takes a lot of pressure off of those concerns.
on this subject; seeing the turntable and where the arm position 'might be' while it's playing is to my thinking an essential thing. the time to reach it is a touch less essential......you can get use to that. maybe it depends on your vinyl collection and just how varied your choices are. but looking over to check the position i find critical.....if you are losing your conscious self while listening (desired).

maybe a monitor with a camera could be an alternative? these days easy to do. i expect you will end up with one....hard to imagine not. i'm planning on a small mirror on a stand for my FCL arm so i can observe the arm position, as it's in the rear mount position so cannot easily see the arm position due to the rack/platter height (the arm position is hidden by the platter). i just need to have all my normal things easily at hand for ease and comfort).

i listen a lot sometimes and won't put up with distractions to my flow.
 
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Ron Resnick

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on this subject; seeing the turntable and where the arm position 'might be' while it's playing is to my thinking an essential thing. the time to reach it is a touch less essential......you can get use to that. maybe it depends on your vinyl collection and just how varied your choices are. but looking over to check the position i find critical.....if you are losing your conscious self while listening (desired).

maybe a monitor with a camera could be an alternative? these days easy to do. i expect you will end up with one....hard to imagine not. i'm planning on a small mirror on a stand for my FCL arm so i can observe the arm position, as it's in the rear mount position so cannot easily see the arm position due to the rack/platter height (the arm position is hidden by the platter). i just need to have all my normal things easily at hand for ease and comfort).

i listen a lot sometimes and won't put up with distractions to my flow.

In a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan I had the same arrangement: the amplifiers and speakers were in the dining room (completely disabling the dining room from functioning as a dining room), and a walk-in closet at the front of the apartment housed the turntable and front-end components. I never experienced a problem worrying about the position of the tonearm on the turntable.

Respectfully, Mike, I just don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Why would I need a video camera pointed at the turntable and a video screen in the listening room to monitor the turntable? It is difficult for me to imagine a more distracting thing than to have a video screen in the listening room.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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In a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan I had the same arrangement: the amplifiers and speakers were in the dining room (completely disabling the dining room from functioning as a dining room), and a walk-in closet at the front of the apartment housed the turntable and front-components. I never experienced a problem worrying about the position of the tonearm on the turntable.

Respectfully, Mike, I just don’t understand what you’re talking about.
it's just me.....don't worry about it. habits are hard to break. i have a habit of observation. for peace of mind. and maybe i'm unique that way?
Why would I need a video camera pointed at the turntable and a video screen in the listening room to monitor the turntable? It is difficult for me to imagine a more distracting thing than to have a video screen in the listening room.
well.....er......how many different records did you play? and a monitor can be very cheap and small, nothing too obtrusive.

maybe since i play lots of unfamiliar classical and am constantly exploring, where there are pieces i don't know, so musically i many times lose track of where things are i need the visual. maybe i'm basically paranoid and need to see that all is well?

in any case, if that listening culture fits your expectations then i celebrate it and won't ever comment on it again. enjoy.
 
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Ron Resnick

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I appreciate your concern, and I appreciate the benefit of your experience!

In my case it is actually rare that I play an unfamiliar album. On the albums I play over and over I’m pretty sure I have a sense of when they are coming to the end.

So I think you are totally correct that it’s simply a difference in listening habits.
 
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PeterA

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on this subject; seeing the turntable and where the arm position 'might be' while it's playing is to my thinking an essential thing. the time to reach it is a touch less essential......you can get use to that. maybe it depends on your vinyl collection and just how varied your choices are. but looking over to check the position i find critical.....if you are losing your conscious self while listening (desired).

maybe a monitor with a camera could be an alternative? these days easy to do. i expect you will end up with one....hard to imagine not. i'm planning on a small mirror on a stand for my FCL arm so i can observe the arm position, as it's in the rear mount position so cannot easily see the arm position due to the rack/platter height (the arm position is hidden by the platter). i just need to have all my normal things easily at hand for ease and comfort).

i listen a lot sometimes and won't put up with distractions to my flow.

This is a very interesting perspective Mike. I’ve never given it any thought. I just drop the needle, sit down and listen to the music until the side is over not caring at all what the system itself is doing.

If I were to build a dedicated room from scratch or heavily modify an existing room, I would seriously consider having a closet off to the side but not far away where am I could locate the front end gear including the turntable so that it can be out of sight but behind a hidden door in the paneling are something easily accessible with good lighting and ventilation and routing longer cables under the floor.
 

Mike Lavigne

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This is a very interesting perspective Mike. I’ve never given it any thought. I just drop the needle, sit down and listen to the music until the side is over not caring at all what the system itself is doing.
If I were to build a dedicated room from scratch or heavily modify an existing room, I would seriously consider having a closet off to the side but not far away where am I could locate the front end gear including the turntable so that it can be out of sight but behind a hidden door in the paneling are something easily accessible with good lighting and ventilation and routing longer cables under the floor.
my serious listening is in dim light, and have no windows so can do that 24/7. my environment is a big deal to me. yet some with an open floor plan and windows like to have the tt and electronics away. no right or wrong to it. YMMV.

i'm no artist or architect.....or play one on TV.

if i had a great room i shared with my wife, i might also want things 'away' as it would be less a bunch of gear intruding on the life space. so i can see that part. needing a flexible entertaining space. that thinking is far away from my situation. people come to my space to listen. period.

i don't 'watch' my turntables, but like knowing i can.
 
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Alrainbow

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a Question
if the amps were in the same room as the front end how long would the speaker wires need to be ?
I do understand why tubes might be better in a room away
even if it’s just more acoustically decoupled

a while back I had all the stuff behind my towers
seemed best
but I did notice behind my towers was an earth quake in low freq both acoustic and physical

if I stoped the music it was a tiny echo
it was the tube dac I was hearing

i know all we use to play music on is both effected by the sound as well as it’s own
internal vibrations
SS is also effected and if one used a stethoscope on a amp transformers or it’s metal transistors it’s also playing our music
footers can drain or iso but not both I think so pic one

so by placing your stuff out of the room I think is a good idea

all of our audio components are effected by resonance
a TT arm and cart is a good example

I’m interested in this topic
 
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