Custom dedicated audio room owners unite!

pjwd

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I work on quite a few projects and I also have my own diffuser product which can be seen on the back walls and doors of the demo room I have been building.

My interest lies with small listening spaces and let me tell you, it is not a popular one. Besides the ones who are working on various scientific experiments, most acousticians deal with noise or voice intelligibility. A very limited number of them work with concert halls and Some work for recording studio designs. Studio design has two faces (recording and mixing) and two separate goals. The mixing room goals and applications are very similar to our listening room goals in a way that the goals are fixed and we know what to shoot for. For concert halls or recording spaces there are some broad rules but no set goals, as recording and creating a sound is an art form in itself with no single right answers.

Back to our listening spaces; Contrary to studio mixing spaces we have many more problems. A domestic listening room adds multiple complexities because of set room shapes, furnitures, variety of speakers that are not as easy to work with as studio monitors, not being able to make all needed treatment because of decor and lastly the clients tend to pick and choose. I am also sorry to say the audiophiles are a hard breed to work with. Sometimes it becomes frustrating.

The descending rt60 is right, like the frequency response curve, mostly even but with a slight rise at LF. It will be like that if the treatment is rightly done, it will follow the speakers response. If you have strong LF but straight rt60 that means you are dampening lf more than hf. So, a good fr and a good rt60 will actually look similar.

The rt60 I showed was flat because the response was flat. I was adjusting my speakers and room. I attach the corresponding fr response of that rt60 so you can see. This is not how I listen, I prefer a slight rise on LF but not as much as Harman target curve but closer to Toole's preferred response curve.
View attachment 104625
Thanks Kodomo
I have worked with quite a few acoustic engineers over the years and most of them would have a melt down working with audiophiles ( a lot of incorrect " beliefs" to dispell)
Hats off to you for focussing on this area!
My enthusiasm is dipole speakers and I am a fan of Linkwitz down shelving from 1khz up .. I also like a bump in the bass with dipoles ( good to present that low fr power of a large orchestra)
So I am probably close to the B&K curve
Cheers
Phil
 
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microstrip

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What was a sonic mistake? :rolleyes:

I quote your sentence " I still believe that baking irreversibly into the cake vastly more absorption in the walls and on the floor and in the ceiling as prescribed by my acoustician would have been a sonic mistake"

Adopted: blue jeans insulation in furred-out front wall
Adopted: blue jeans insulation in soffit cavities
Adopted: acoustic-thermal insulation in side-walls

Rejected: vinyl sheeting in front wall
Rejected: vinyl sheeting in side walls
Rejected: Lumitex under floor carpet
Rejected: Vibramat (with vinyl layer) under floor carpet
Rejected: Lumitex lined drapes on side walls and rear wall

IMO you rejected the decisions that needed and showed the acoustician expertise and kept those that just needed common sense. It looks like the guy who goes to the doctor with pain in the chess and rejects all the heart drugs from his prescription, but keeps the vitamins and pain killers. :)
 

Ron Resnick

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IMO you rejected the decisions that needed and showed the acoustician expertise and kept those that just needed common sense.

I do not dispute this characterization.

Soliciting expert advice; performing independent information-gathering and research; evaluating and weighing the opinions of experts who disagree; making decisions in the absence of perfect information; assigning confidence levels and probabilities of success -- all part of a very normal executive decision-making process.
 
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brad225

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What was a sonic mistake? :rolleyes:

Adopted: blue jeans insulation in furred-out front wall
Adopted: blue jeans insulation in soffit cavities
Adopted: acoustic-thermal insulation in side-walls

Rejected: vinyl sheeting in front wall
Rejected: vinyl sheeting in side walls
Rejected: Lumitex under floor carpet
Rejected: Vibramat (with vinyl layer) under floor carpet
Rejected: Lumitex lined drapes on side walls and rear wall
In my room, I used blue jean insulation in my 4 corner base traps. The results have been very good for my room.

I have given left over pieces to friends that have used them for absorption in different applications. It has worked well for them.
 
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microstrip

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I do not dispute this characterization.

Soliciting expert advice; performing independent information-gathering and research; evaluating and weighing the opinions of experts who disagree; making decisions in the absence of perfect information; assigning confidence levels and probabilities of success -- all part of a very normal executive decision-making process.

My apologies - as far as I could see you perfectly fulfilled the first point Soliciting expert advice; but I could not see any relevant activity about the others in your posts. Perhaps I am wrong, but by comparison with Steve reports on the very professional work of Bonnie and its complexity, my perspective is that you decided to ignore the advice of your acoustician, following another trends on listening room acoustics.
 
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sbo6

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The descending rt60 is right, like the frequency response curve, mostly even but with a slight rise at LF. It will be like that if the treatment is rightly done, it will follow the speakers response. If you have strong LF but straight rt60 that means you are dampening lf more than hf. So, a good fr and a good rt60 will actually look similar.
This, IME and IMO is paramount to very good, balanced sound and is overlooked. There is a direct relationship between (and especially) lf output (db) and lf RT60. While it sounds intuitive, I find RT60 analysis and its importance often overlooked. And lf bass management in terms of getting RT60 to the right level is very, very difficult. Huge waves, especially at higher SPLs in our mostly smallish rooms.
 

pjwd

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This, IME and IMO is paramount to very good, balanced sound and is overlooked. There is a direct relationship between (and especially) lf output (db) and lf RT60. While it sounds intuitive, I find RT60 analysis and its importance often overlooked. And lf bass management in terms of getting RT60 to the right level is very, very difficult. Huge waves, especially at higher SPLs in our mostly smallish rooms.
As I understand it RT 60 was developed for large rooms where a reverbarent sound field is developed .. and in small rooms it is not usefull below say 200hz .. do you think it tells you more than a waterfall plot

Phil
 

Ron Resnick

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My apologies - as far as I could see you perfectly fulfilled the first point Soliciting expert advice; but I could not see any relevant activity about the others in your posts. Perhaps I am wrong, but by comparison with Steve reports on the very professional work of Bonnie and its complexity, my perspective is that you decided to ignore the advice of your acoustician, following another trends on listening room acoustics.

I do not know about the trends to which you refer. As my list in response to your question indicated, I chose to ignore several recommendations of my acoustician, yes.
 

microstrip

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As I understand it RT 60 was developed for large rooms where a reverbarent sound field is developed .. and in small rooms it is not usefull below say 200hz .. do you think it tells you more than a waterfall plot

Phil

As you wisely say the RT60 is a poor absolute indicator of room sound quality as a merit figure in our typical rooms.

However it is a precious relative tool during room treatments, as we can easily compare the RT60 versus frequency during the different phases of the treatment and analyze the effect of acoustic treatments. The waterfall is surely more powerful, but has strong resolution limitations in the bass. Using it without considering these specific, but non trivial aspects can be misleading.
 
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kodomo

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I suggest using spectrogram. It is the easiest one to read and I use it a lot to show my clients the problems, I like it more than waterfall when explaining. For example, one showing a low end decay problem and one mostly sorted out;


albedo spectrogram.jpg




spectrogram.jpg
 
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kodomo

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It is not the same as rt60, but in the end, it is always the same data presented in different ways. This and the waterfall are very good for inspecting problems and the effectiveness of solutions.
 

sbo6

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Thanks Kodomo
This more or less produces the same info in a different way ... is that correct
As I understand it RT 60 was developed for large rooms where a reverbarent sound field is developed .. and in small rooms it is not usefull below say 200hz .. do you think it tells you more than a waterfall plot

Phil
Microstrip and kodomo beat me to the punch. :)

Frequency response and RT60 together are powerful tools. Individually you only get part of the picture.

Also, I use the Spectrograph plot quite often due to its simple clarity.
 

Bobvin

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I am not an acoustician, and I don’t play one on TV or in audio forums. But I did take the advice of Bonnie for the build-out of my room. In my case the blue-jeans insulation is behind the mass loaded vinyl layer, sheetrock, and custom BAD panels so its function is primarily to reduce sound leakage out of the room into adjoining rooms. The mass loaded vinyl layer further reduces transmission and acts as a buffer between sheet-rock and studs, damping energy and reducing the walls reverberant response. Bonnie prefers this to multiple layers of sheetrock. Unlike Ron, who chose the bare wood walls, I would for sure have kept this recommendation for the vinyl layer behind the wood.

The upstairs of my house is untreated acoustically, bare sheetrock walls screwed to studs, large glass windows everywhere. It is an echo chamber and once a dozen people are there talking it gets very loud, very fast, and communication becomes difficult. Oh yeah, its very “lively” and “natural” and would be a shit place to try and enjoy music.

My listening room, on the other hand, has only one highly reflective wall, that is the window wall with the view into the forest. The other walls are treated with custom BAD panels behind acoustic fabric. The floor is carpeted with natural wool beneath is a layer of Lumitex and carpet pad with mass loaded vinyl bonded to the bottom. The ceiling has blue-jeans insulation between joists, mass loaded vinyl layer, and sheetrock, with high-hat mufflers like Steve has in his room. the ceiling has a “cloud” between listening position and speaker positions.

The window wall has curtains with Lumitex layer, but those are kept open when listening so they bunch where behind them would be wood window/door framing or sheetrock. The openings to the stairs and hallway to lower floor bedrooms have heavy drapes with 3 layers of lumitex. I listen with those drapes closed, but when I have multiple guests I open them to varying amounts, because the drapes across the stairs curve out into the room — for the back row seats they become a little too close on one side. Beside curtains across stairs and the hallway the room does not close so is open to the upstairs and bedroom wing.

Speaking and conversation in the listening room is very different from the upper floor. The listening room is “quiet” in comparison, voices are clear and articulate, and there is a very calm and peaceful overall gestalt. The custom BAD panels incorporate some recent university research where Bonnie specified a ring around the room, about 20” high, centered on ear position when seated, where the holes on the panels are of different size and distribution than the rest of the panel. Hand claps are clear and sharp, with natural decay and no ringing.

Down the hallway to the bedroom wing I had a wine cellar built and it has floor to ceiling glass. This left a hallway just shy of 4’ width with glass on one side and sheetrock on the other. A hand clap here had huge echo and ringing. Because I don’t draw the drapes fully (as mentioned above) when I have multiple guests, I was worried this overly lively hallway would impact the listening space. I had some leftover carpet pad with the vinyl layer so I mounted some to the sheetrock wall and put the same fabric over it I used to cover the BAD panels. Further down the hallway I mounted a sheet of hard fiberglass insulation and covered it with fabric as well. Now a handclap in the hallway, or beside the wine cellar, does not echo and ring — so I am comfortable leaving the curtains open and not degrading the sound in the listening room.

I have not heard Steve’s room, nor have I heard Ron’s. I have had a visitor who has heard Steve’s room and said there are similarities between our rooms but they are not the same. When I visited the Magico showroom (v1, not the latest design) both myself and my friend immediately remarked how similar the sound and gestalt was very much like my room. I think I can confidently say Ron’s space, with reflective wood wall and glass windows would sound much more “lively” than my space. I am sure I would have chosen to have no two parallel surfaces be fully reflective. (Curtains judiciously located perhaps.)

The other key difference from my point of view was a strong desire to never really see any room treatments. There are many companies offering wall treatments that are aesthetically pleasing but adding them after the fact, when I had opportunity to incorporate them in advance, means finding something effective that would fit my interior design choices might be very difficult. WAF is very important in my world.

Fortunately, if any of my visitors have had negative comments about the sound of my room, they’ve waited until they’ve left to voice them. On the other hand, I get a lot of very positive comments about it being one of the best rooms / listening experiences they’ve ever had. Look for some positive comments in a forthcoming Tone Audio review. (Can’t say more until publication.)

One last comment… I have now had four different speakers in the room — Wilson Alexias, Alsyvox Botticell, Bayz Counterpoints and Courantes, and Diesis Roma. All sound fantastic and the room was not designed to a specific speaker. Granted, I have not flipped the room and tried to place speakers on different walls, generally speaker positioning is similar. I believe a well engineered space should not constrain your speaker choices.
 
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Steve Williams

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The two things I have done since Bonnie left was to remove the Paradise Foam contained behind the large oil painting on my front wall as it gave more punch to the sound . So also I opened the side curtains to facilitate 1st reflections. These two things as well as moving my listening position forward 3 feet are the only changes I have made
 

Kingrex

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I am not an acoustician, and I don’t play one on TV or in audio forums. But I did take the advice of Bonnie for the build-out of my room. In my case the blue-jeans insulation is behind the mass loaded vinyl layer, sheetrock, and custom BAD panels so its function is primarily to reduce sound leakage out of the room into adjoining rooms. The mass loaded vinyl layer further reduces transmission and acts as a buffer between sheet-rock and studs, damping energy and reducing the walls reverberant response. Bonnie prefers this to multiple layers of sheetrock. Unlike Ron, who chose the bare wood walls, I would for sure have kept this recommendation for the vinyl layer behind the wood.

The upstairs of my house is untreated acoustically, bare sheetrock walls screwed to studs, large glass windows everywhere. It is an echo chamber and once a dozen people are there talking it gets very loud, very fast, and communication becomes difficult. Oh yeah, its very “lively” and “natural” and would be a shit place to try and enjoy music.

My listening room, on the other hand, has only one highly reflective wall, that is the window wall with the view into the forest. The other walls are treated with custom BAD panels behind acoustic fabric. The floor is carpeted with natural wool beneath is a layer of Lumitex and carpet pad with mass loaded vinyl bonded to the bottom. The ceiling has blue-jeans insulation between joists, mass loaded vinyl layer, and sheetrock, with high-hat mufflers like Steve has in his room. the ceiling has a “cloud” between listening position and speaker positions.

The window wall has curtains with Lumitex layer, but those are kept open when listening so they bunch where behind them would be wood window/door framing or sheetrock. The openings to the stairs and hallway to lower floor bedrooms have heavy drapes with 3 layers of lumitex. I listen with those drapes closed, but when I have multiple guests I open them to varying amounts, because the drapes across the stairs curve out into the room — for the back row seats they become a little too close on one side. Beside curtains across stairs and the hallway the room does not close so is open to the upstairs and bedroom wing.

Speaking and conversation in the listening room is very different from the upper floor. The listening room is “quiet” in comparison, voices are clear and articulate, and there is a very calm and peaceful overall gestalt. The custom BAD panels incorporate some recent university research where Bonnie specified a ring around the room, about 20” high, centered on ear position when seated, where the holes on the panels are of different size and distribution than the rest of the panel. Hand claps are clear and sharp, with natural decay and no ringing.

Down the hallway to the bedroom wing I had a wine cellar built and it has floor to ceiling glass. This left a hallway just shy of 4’ width with glass on one side and sheetrock on the other. A hand clap here had huge echo and ringing. Because I don’t draw the drapes fully (as mentioned above) when I have multiple guests, I was worried this overly lively hallway would impact the listening space. I had some leftover carpet pad with the vinyl layer so I mounted some to the sheetrock wall and put the same fabric over it I used to cover the BAD panels. Further down the hallway I mounted a sheet of hard fiberglass insulation and covered it with fabric as well. Now a handclap in the hallway, or beside the wine cellar, does not echo and ring — so I am comfortable leaving the curtains open and not degrading the sound in the listening room.

I have not heard Steve’s room, nor have I heard Ron’s. I have had a visitor who has heard Steve’s room and said there are similarities between our rooms but they are not the same. When I visited the Magico showroom (v1, not the latest design) both myself and my friend immediately remarked how similar the sound and gestalt was very much like my room. I think I can confidently say Ron’s space, with reflective wood wall and glass windows would sound much more “lively” than my space. I am sure I would have chosen to have no two parallel surfaces be fully reflective. (Curtains judiciously located perhaps.)

The other key difference from my point of view was a strong desire to never really see any room treatments. There are many companies offering wall treatments that are aesthetically pleasing but adding them after the fact, when I had opportunity to incorporate them in advance, means finding something effective that would fit my interior design choices might be very difficult. WAF is very important in my world.

Fortunately, if any of my visitors have had negative comments about the sound of my room, they’ve waited until they’ve left to voice them. On the other hand, I get a lot of very positive comments about it being one of the best rooms / listening experiences they’ve ever had. Look for some positive comments in a forthcoming Tone Audio review. (Can’t say more until publication.)

One last comment… I have now had four different speakers in the room — Wilson Alexias, Alsyvox Botticell, Bayz Counterpoints and Courantes, and Diesis Roma. All sound fantastic and the room was not designed to a specific speaker. Granted, I have not flipped the room and tried to place speakers on different walls, generally speaker positioning is similar. I believe a well engineered space should not constrain your speaker choices.
I like your room Bob. Its quiet and calm. I never noticed the room speaking out during the listening experience. For a space in a home that does not say "Im listening room" yours performs like a well done room but has a very tasteful feel.

If you were to build your house again, what parts of the listening room treatments do you think could go upstairs to make the living, dining, great area a more calm controlled room for party conversation purposes.
 
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Argonaut

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The two things I have done since Bonnie left was to remove the Paradise Foam contained behind the large oil painting on my front wall as it gave more punch to the sound . So also I opened the side curtains to facilitate 1st reflections. These two things as well as moving my listening position forward 3 feet are the only changes I have made
Eliciting a little Joie de vivre in your room response to the recording ?
 
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Bobvin

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I like your room Bob. Its quiet and calm. I never noticed the room speaking out during the listening experience. For a space in a home that does not say "Im listening room" yours performs like a well done room but has a very tasteful feel.

If you were to build your house again, what parts of the listening room treatments do you think could go upstairs to make the living, dining, great area a more calm controlled room for party conversation purposes.
Rex, first off, thanks for the kind words.

WRT my upper floor, now that I am trying (not so successfully yet) to be retired, I’m considering adding some dampening to a couple walls. A fabric wall is pretty easy to install -- mount the fabric tracks, put some hard fiberglass insulation between the borders, and stretch on your chosen fabric. No need for a BAD panel — just some adsorption. Unless you are experienced I’d say stick with fabrics that don’t have a repeating pattern which are hard to match up. There are an endless variety of fabrics, I’d go with a solid very neutral color to match my wall paint. A fabric wall like that would disappear visually. i’d also try a couple simple pre-made panels on the ceiling. It is really just about reducing the reflected sound between parallel surfaces. I wish restaurants would do this more, they get so loud you cannot have a conversation with your friends.
 

rando

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OT: The business of industrial acoustics is very large and should provide you with numerous WAF acceptable options which could be discretely implemented or decorated.

In this crowd I doubt very much something as commonplace as a doorknob's contribution would be discredited. Just to provide an example outside your likely perception of the intent within my response, i.e. not blunt and large fixtures hard to disguise.
 

brad225

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Rex, first off, thanks for the kind words.

WRT my upper floor, now that I am trying (not so successfully yet) to be retired, I’m considering adding some dampening to a couple walls. A fabric wall is pretty easy to install -- mount the fabric tracks, put some hard fiberglass insulation between the borders, and stretch on your chosen fabric. No need for a BAD panel — just some adsorption. Unless you are experienced I’d say stick with fabrics that don’t have a repeating pattern which are hard to match up. There are an endless variety of fabrics, I’d go with a solid very neutral color to match my wall paint. A fabric wall like that would disappear visually. i’d also try a couple simple pre-made panels on the ceiling. It is really just about reducing the reflected sound between parallel surfaces. I wish restaurants would do this more, they get so loud you cannot have a conversation with your friends.
If you have not tried Gulf of Maine fabric, take a look at them. They have a good stretch to them and the right fabric can go on in any direction and looks perfect. All of my walls are done with 2" thick Owens Corning 705 fiberglass in a 3 " deep frame stretched with Gulf of Maine Fabric.
When I built my room I chose total dampening and then added diffusion as needed to create the spaciousness I wanted.

My approach is not for everyone but I am very happy with the results.
IMG_1853.JPG
 

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