Best XLR connectors money can buy?

[Atmasphere]

What was the conclusion regarding the best XLR connectors money can buy?

Neutrix. IMO/IME the silver plated ones are the ones to get, since they hold up better over time as opposed to those with gold because silver is a lot harder than gold. But if you don't plan on swapping cables much, the gold plated ones work just fine.

Just like everything else, your bias is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

Not at all. I said

The shield is what creates the capacitance.

in response to Ron's question about what causes the capacitance in a single-ended cable. You said

A shield's capacitance depends on how close it is to the conductors, with a good design this is minimized by spacing the shield further away.

in our universe, its clear that you are talking about the shield (since the word 'shield' occurs twice in the quote just above...) and nothing else, elaborating on what I already had said. Yet you said

Nope

These two responses were in the same quote!! A normal person on the street would perceive that as a contradiction. I see it that way too- its a hard argument to see it otherwise, and Occam's Razor strongly suggests doing so would be incorrect.

As we both know, remove the shield and most single-ended cables won't read on a capacitance tester because they would only be looking at the capacitance of the connector and nothing else. A very small number of single-ended cables will read because the shield is not carrying the return connection, simply being a drain, so there is a second conductor that is doing the return circuit. But even if you measure one of those cables and remove the shield and measure the capacitance again, you'll find that the lion's share of the capacitance had to do with the shield. So while I gave the simple answer, it was 100% correct with +99% of cables, and only required this nuance to be correct for the tiny fraction that have two conductors inside the shield.

 

[DaveC]

As we both know, remove the shield and most single-ended cables won't read on a capacitance tester because they would only be looking at the capacitance of the connector and nothing else. A very small number of single-ended cables will read because the shield is not carrying the return connection, simply being a drain, so there is a second conductor that is doing the return circuit. But even if you measure one of those cables and remove the shield and measure the capacitance again, you'll find that the lion's share of the capacitance had to do with the shield. So while I gave the simple answer, it was 100% correct with +99% of cables, and only required this nuance to be correct for the tiny fraction that have two conductors inside the shield.

What are you talking about? This is ridiculous... it's not 1970 anymore. A VAST majority of single ended cables use 2 legs inside the shield with the shield terminated on one end only.

 

[Atmasphere]

What are you talking about? This is ridiculous... it's not 1970 anymore. A VAST majority of single ended cables use 2 legs inside the shield with the shield terminated on one end only.

I agree this is ridiculous. But what you say above is false. Except the bit about not being 1970...

 

[microstrip]

Sounds like your components are improperly designed. Sorry!

Don´t be sorry, I am open to all opinions in WBF, even those of people who think they know it all and are the best experts in audio and others are completely wrong.

But yes, fortunately in the high-end most components are what the objectivists (in the positive sense of the word) consider improperly designed to please our preferences.

Apparently they all sound the same.

In the conditions Ralph referred in his posts since long, not every time.

IMO these direct exchanges of conflicting opinions between manufacturers are a a good point of WBF and fortunately readers are mature enough to appreciate them and decide for themselves, but IMO you are misrepresenting the other opinion to made your point, something I do not appreciate. Sorry ...

 

[DaveC]

I agree this is ridiculous. But what you say above is false. Except the bit about not being 1970...

Ok, if you're going to insist the vast majority of RCA cables used in high end audio are coax cables, I'm done here. That assertion is, once again, not reality and I can't take the time to argue the absurd.


micro is right, people can judge for themselves...

-10 ft max RCA cable based on a fringe case of a super high output impedance preamp.

-All XLR cables sound the same.

-If you don't agree with the above the issue is with your components.

-A vast majority of RCA cables are coax cables.

 

[Kingrex]

A fair amount of my interconnects have a shield. My Inakustik does. So do my Genesis. I am all single ended.
I had a phono cable picking up all sorts of hum. I put 2 layers of conductive mylar over it and wrapped it with dead soft silver and terminated to the phono stage. That eliminated the hum.

I do have issues with silver. They tarnish quickly. I was at a home recently and the owner had silver almost everything. Power, speaker and interconnects. He loved his silver. The cables were not that old. I broke out my cleaner and removed a copious amount of black tarnish. When we reassembled the system and turned it on, it was amazingly more clean and clear. There was a lot of damage going on from the tarnish. Or I assume the tarnish was the issue.

 

[Kingrex]

I have a 38 foot single ended interconnect made from Mogami mocrophone cable. I landed the shield on 1 end. I also have a 10 foot set from the wire I bought. Same ends. Some screw down Furutech. I can't tell them apart. I cant hardly tell them from a 5 foot set of single ended from a decent cable maker.

I do find the interconnect is the least "Vocal" cable in my system. And many other systems. The speaker cable presents the most. Power probably second. Then USB. Ethernet, not so much.

Of course, someone who spent $18K on a AQ dragon interconnect is going to say the heavens opened up. I asked one of those people to do a demo of the Dragon and their old cable. The guy said No. Then he said he didn't want to know because it cost so much.

 

[Kingrex]

I just want to say, I have issues with a lot of what people say they hear and don't hear. I am not pitching anything here, just making a point. I left a isolation transformer with a guy to try on his amps. He said he tried it and didn't hear anything. I went back a couple weeks later to get it and brought my friend Bob who is at all the shows with me. He wanted to hear this stereo. It is a very nice system. After about 10 or 15 songs I asked to put the Torus in to hear for myself. A data point. Immediately Bob is shuffling and making his face. I heard it too. A large change. This time the owner says yes, he is hearing it. Maybe he played the wrong song or something last time and did not investigate what was going on thoroughly.

My point is, what is really going on with all the I hear this or that. Its so up in the air. I wonder how much is driven by your mood and expectations. I love the forum review where the person states how amazing something is and gives all the flowery descriptions. Then at the end disclaims these attributes are very subtle but there.

 

[Solypsa]

There was a lot of damage going on from the tarnish. Or I assume the tarnish was the issue.

Interesting observation. It is often noted that silver tarnish is still close to as conductive as clean silver and not much of a detriment. Always good to hear an experience based observation tho...

 

[microstrip]

Interesting observation. It is often noted that silver tarnish is still close to as conductive as clean silver and not much of a detriment. Always good to hear an experience based observation tho...

Silver oxide is still a conductor, but having four orders of magnitude less conductivity than pure silver. Silver oxide is a semiconductor, meaning its resistivity varies with signal amplitude. So the advice is always keep your silver connectors clean, unless you want to have the sound distortions due to the silver oxide!

 

[adrianywu]

Sheesh.

The first statement is contradicted by that of the second and 3rd paragraphs (the latter of which consists of one sentence). For those that understand debate, usually when someone is willing to contradict themself in this fashion, its in order to make someone else wrong rather than further the conversation about the topic. To restore integrity at the very least the contradictions have to be eliminated. In lawyer terms its sort of a 'were you lying then or are you lying now?' thing; never a good position to be in.

This statement (and a good portion of what followed it):


is false: 1st, the idea that a balanced circuit (which, FWIW is a red herring insofar as the topic of this thread is concerned) must have double the parts is a common myth as anyone who designs balanced circuits should know. If you use a differential amplifier for that balanced circuit, and count the parts, you have less than double the parts. It is helpful to match some of them, but as anyone who has done precision single-ended circuits knows, its helpful to have circuit values bang on regardless if you really want good results. The real trick to getting differential circuits to work well is the constant current source. Regarding distortion cancellation, yes, even orders are cancelled, but because distortion is compounded less from stage to stage, the odd orders remaining fall off at a faster rate (due to the cubic nature of even ordered harmonic cancellation) as the order of the harmonic is increased, thus allowing in the 3rd harmonic (which is innocuous to the human ear) to mask them (assuming open loop design, IOW no feedback). This is a good thing.

The problem that balanced line equipment solves of course, is that of the interconnect (whether or not the internal circuit of the equipment is also balanced). If you have ever auditioned two single-ended cables side by side and found one sounded superior, you know what I'm talking about. What you can safely conclude from that sort of audition is both cables are wrong. This is because the manufacturer of the better cable will have a new version of it next year and if he doesn't, someone else will. Balanced line operation gets you off of that white elephant merry go round and the benefit is there even if the cable is only 6 inches.

Of course we all know the cost of a good quality interconnect these days... its the hidden cost of single ended equipment and the hidden variable as to whether the equipment can be set up successfully. There's nothing magic about it, it is simply what I said here on this thread 2 years ago

SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well. The reason they have a following is entirely due to how they make distortion. I know a lot of people will have trouble with that, but its the simple truth- to understand that, its helpful also to know how the distortion that SETs make interacts with the human ear.

I've gone into this in great depth elsewhere on this site so won't repeat myself here. Single ended equipment is really off topic on a thread devoted to XLR connectors...

I agree mostly with Ralph's explanation. Having experimented for decades, I have come to the conclusion that at least for me, the following rules need to apply: 1. All balanced differential circuitry. 2. Balanced interconnects. I prefer not having shields and I simply use braided pure silver solid wire with extruded teflon. 3. I prefer Lemo connectors. Since I build most of my equipment, this is not a problem. I use medical grade Lemo Redel; these have silver pins and plastic bodies. They can be autoclaved, but this is not relevant to our needs. They are non-magnetic (for MRI scanners), and this is. 4. No electrolytic caps anywhere in the signal path (including the power supply, even though it is not in the signal path in a balanced circuit !). 5. Star grounding, for both the signal path and the power supplies.
Everything else is secondary.

 

[DaveC]

I agree mostly with Ralph's explanation. Having experimented for decades, I have come to the conclusion that at least for me, the following rules need to apply: 1. All balanced differential circuitry. 2. Balanced interconnects. I prefer not having shields and I simply use braided pure silver solid wire with extruded teflon. 3. I prefer Lemo connectors. Since I build most of my equipment, this is not a problem. I use medical grade Lemo Redel; these have silver pins and plastic bodies. They can be autoclaved, but this is not relevant to our needs. They are non-magnetic (for MRI scanners), and this is. 4. No electrolytic caps anywhere in the signal path (including the power supply, even though it is not in the signal path in a balanced circuit !). 5. Star grounding, for both the signal path and the power supplies.
Everything else is secondary.

You agree with Ralph then go on to describe the extraordinary lengths you go to make XLR cables? If you did agree you'd be using a commodity level shielded twisted pair XLR cable with basic plugs. What am I missing here?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

You agree with Ralph then go on to describe the extraordinary lengths you go to make XLR cables? If you did agree you'd be using a commodity level shielded twisted pair XLR cable with basic plugs. What am I missing h

Neither of you are looking good on this one. Ralph has always been a proponent of balanced amplification when the amplifier is built using the ASE48 Standard. Do all amplifier manufacturers use this standard? Nope, is that on Ralph, nope. Do all cable manufactures use the same standard? nope, is that your fault Dave? nope. Think it is time to get back to the original question.

 

[DaveC]

Neither of you are looking good on this one.

Without any context this criticism has no purpose except to shame. If you have any specific issues with what I said then say it, if not I'll just dismiss this as someone taking it personally when their beliefs are challenged.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Without any context this criticism has no purpose except to shame. If you have any specific issues with what I said then say it, if not I'll just dismiss this as someone taking it personally when their beliefs are challenged.

Not really, I do not a dog in this fight and at this point will probably never will, at least not regarding your cables.

Atmasphere said:
Sheesh.

The first statement is contradicted by that of the second and 3rd paragraphs (the latter of which consists of one sentence). For those that understand debate, usually when someone is willing to contradict themself in this fashion, its in order to make someone else wrong rather than further the conversation about the topic. To restore integrity at the very least the contradictions have to be eliminated. In lawyer terms its sort of a 'were you lying then or are you lying now?' thing; never a good position to be in.

This statement (and a good portion of what followed it):


is false: 1st, the idea that a balanced circuit (which, FWIW is a red herring insofar as the topic of this thread is concerned) must have double the parts is a common myth as anyone who designs balanced circuits should know. If you use a differential amplifier for that balanced circuit, and count the parts, you have less than double the parts. It is helpful to match some of them, but as anyone who has done precision single-ended circuits knows, its helpful to have circuit values bang on regardless if you really want good results. The real trick to getting differential circuits to work well is the constant current source. Regarding distortion cancellation, yes, even orders are cancelled, but because distortion is compounded less from stage to stage, the odd orders remaining fall off at a faster rate (due to the cubic nature of even ordered harmonic cancellation) as the order of the harmonic is increased, thus allowing in the 3rd harmonic (which is innocuous to the human ear) to mask them (assuming open loop design, IOW no feedback). This is a good thing.

The problem that balanced line equipment solves of course, is that of the interconnect (whether or not the internal circuit of the equipment is also balanced). If you have ever auditioned two single-ended cables side by side and found one sounded superior, you know what I'm talking about. What you can safely conclude from that sort of audition is both cables are wrong. This is because the manufacturer of the better cable will have a new version of it next year and if he doesn't, someone else will. Balanced line operation gets you off of that white elephant merry go round and the benefit is there even if the cable is only 6 inches.

Of course we all know the cost of a good quality interconnect these days... its the hidden cost of single ended equipment and the hidden variable as to whether the equipment can be set up successfully. There's nothing magic about it, it is simply what I said here on this thread 2 years ago

SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well. The reason they have a following is entirely due to how they make distortion. I know a lot of people will have trouble with that, but its the simple truth- to understand that, its helpful also to know how the distortion that SETs make interacts with the human ear.

I've gone into this in great depth elsewhere on this site so won't repeat myself here. Single ended equipment is really off topic on a thread devoted to XLR connectors...
Click to expand...

Just like everything else, your bias is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

Sorry for the run on sentences and other grammatical issues, I just don't have the time to go into great depth correcting your misguided views on all this.

Anyone with common sense can see what you're saying is biased, misguided BS, and they can hear it too.

Atmasphere said:
SETs perform poorly on the bench and are easily bested in the sonic arena as well.

Not by any of your amps.

 

[DaveC]

Not really, I do not a dog in this fight and at this point will probably never will, at least not regarding your cables.

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

You did not. Time to move on Dave.

 

[DaveC]

You did not. Time to move on Dave.

Ok, thank you very much for your input.

 

[adrianywu]

You agree with Ralph then go on to describe the extraordinary lengths you go to make XLR cables? If you did agree you'd be using a commodity level shielded twisted pair XLR cable with basic plugs. What am I missing here?

I don't see how this contradicts anything Ralph said, just as me building my own preamps and amps has no relevance to what I think of commercial equipment. I started using Gotham GAC-3 cables in my home audio system after learning that FM Acoustics were rebranding the cable and selling it at high price. Of course, before rebranding, it was just a commodity cable that cost US$1 per meter, but after rebranding, it becomes an audiophile-approved high end cable. I had reels of the stuff, since I used it (and still do) for my microphones. Through experimentation, I found I liked solid silver wires with teflon insulation, and so I made a bunch of those and swapped out the Gotham. I gave several friends my cables to try, and all of them have substituted their high end interconnects with it. I did not add a shield since I did not need it, and I like to keep things simple.
As for XLR plugs, I too use the Neutrik with silver pins. They are well built and can withstand a lot of abuse, which is needed when doing location recordings. They sound perfectly fine, and I don't see any reason why more expensive plugs will necessarily be any better. I use them at home too, but for my own equipment, I use Lemo. The Lemo plugs can be unplugged with one hand, since they unlock by pulling on the collar. Very useful since I am often swapping equipment.

 

[DaveC]

I don't see how this contradicts anything Ralph said, just as me building my own preamps and amps has no relevance to what I think of commercial equipment. I started using Gotham GAC-3 cables in my home audio system after learning that FM Acoustics were rebranding the cable and selling it at high price. Of course, before rebranding, it was just a commodity cable that cost US$1 per meter, but after rebranding, it becomes an audiophile-approved high end cable. I had reels of the stuff, since I used it (and still do) for my microphones. Through experimentation, I found I liked solid silver wires with teflon insulation, and so I made a bunch of those and swapped out the Gotham. I gave several friends my cables to try, and all of them have substituted their high end interconnects with it. I did not add a shield since I did not need it, and I like to keep things simple.
As for XLR plugs, I too use the Neutrik with silver pins. They are well built and can withstand a lot of abuse, which is needed when doing location recordings. They sound perfectly fine, and I don't see any reason why more expensive plugs will necessarily be any better. I use them at home too, but for my own equipment, I use Lemo. The Lemo plugs can be unplugged with one hand, since they unlock by pulling on the collar. Very useful since I am often swapping equipment.

It contradicts the fact Ralph said all XLR cables sound the same. All the other stuff you said is well and good, but irrelevant to that one point.

FWIW, I totally agree silver/teflon is an upgrade over a commodity level copper cable, preferably UPOCC silver. I also don't use shields unless it's necessary, but the fact is the XLR standard is a shielded twisted pair and the only reason to deviate from a commodity level STP cable is if XLR cables do indeed sound different from one another.