The Devil is in the Detail

[morricab]

yes but he says the sibilance is there in the recording

Well there is sibilance and then there is SIBILANCE...that is how I read it.

 

[morricab]

system balance starts with avoidance of coloration fundamentally. ideally you have enough different sources to determine neutrality of gear and variance of media. yet also not all systems can sort out the complex thick soundscapes and make sense of them equally. sibilance is a bit of a different issue. you can do a lot of regressive damage focusing on a couple recordings and trying to 'fix' them. but is it the recording? the specific media? you need lot's of recordings maybe to figure that out.

one of my big things is avoiding any sameness across all recordings, whether pleasing or not. reduced detail/nuance/musical rightness on peaks is eventually the cost of dumbing down your system, or a very limited musical horizon.

but there are no wrong ways to do it. be happy.

Agree that recordings should sound quite different from each other...doesn't mean it is an accurate sound but at least resolving of recording variance.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The dutch importer from Halcro said it sunday and i fully agree
The human voice is the first and foremost test of an audio system.
its something everybody knows .
Whether the sibilance sounds natural is something anybody can determine very quickly .
Its also something you can immediately hear when you hear WADAX digital and good tape

 

[bonzo75]

Well there is sibilance and then there is SIBILANCE...that is how I read it.

irrespective of whether it is on the recording or not? That data point does not make a difference to you?

 

[Al M.]

Whether the sibilance sounds natural is something anybody can determine very quickly .
Its also something you can immediately hear when you hear WADAX digital and good tape

Or any good modern digital. It's not that hard really. We are not in the 80s anymore.

 

[PeterA]

No, he talks about a recording on two different systems...one full and rich and the other overly sibilant. Is it the recording or the system then? Could be one or the other...perhaps the full and rich one is overly dull with many other recordings...

Brad, I think you need more data points and experimentation to determine the answer to that question. I remember when a couple people were going around telling everyone the new Colibrí‘s “Have way too much sibilance“. Then having encountered samples that were well set up, those prior claims were retracted. This is just the way it is.

 

[bonzo75]

Brad, I think you need more data points and experimentation to determine the answer to that question. I remember when a couple people were going around telling everyone the new Colibrí‘s “Have way too much sibilance“. Then having encountered samples that were well set up, those prior claims were retracted. This is just the way it is.

Sorry you are again discussing system points. Dcathro’s post had one key point you are ignoring. There is a recording artefact that one system is hiding and another one isn’t. I do not see any parallels of this and your vdh analogy

 

[PeterA]

Sorry you are again discussing system points. Dcathro’s post had one key point you are ignoring. There is a recording artefact that one system is hiding and another one isn’t. I do not see any parallels of this and your vdh analogy

One recording, two systems. It is not enough information to reach any conclusions. I would take a different recording of a human voice and play it on the same two systems and then you might begin to grasp whether it is a recording issue or a system issue. Or you could take that same recording and played on the third system. If that original recording sounds different on three different systems, I will start looking at the systems, and then individual components in the system.

I brought up the cartridge example because imagine that cartridge being in one of the two original systems and not the other one. Those who think that Colibrí‘s have a lot of sibilance would look at that first, not the recording.

i’m sure most of us here have opinions about the way some gear has specific sonic signatures. We read your opinions about that all the time.

 

[ssfas]

How can you choose a system that will let you hide extra unwanted stuff on one recording and if it is wanted, let it through - it needs to let through the recording. And then if you don't like something, e.g. sibilance, choose a recording without it.

 

[bonzo75]

One recording, two systems. It is not enough information to reach any conclusions.

It is not a specific system he is asking analysis of, his post is to be interpreted as do you prefer systems that show unwanted details or not? In isolation of an example I would say “not”, but not when he gave the example that the unwanted sound is clearly on the recording and the pleasant system is masking it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

One recording, two systems. It is not enough information to reach any conclusions. I would take a different recording of a human voice and play it on the same two systems and then you might begin to grasp whether it is a recording issue or a system issue. Or you could take that same recording and played on the third system. If that original recording sounds different on three different systems, I will start looking at the systems, and then individual components in the system.

I brought up the cartridge example because imagine that cartridge being in one of the two original systems and not the other one. Those who think that Colibrí‘s have a lot of sibilance would look at that first, not the recording.

i’m sure most of us here have opinions about the way some gear has specific sonic signatures. We read your opinions about that all the time.

having owned 10 Colibri's over 20 years, with system evolution, some were more a bother than others with being splashy sounding sometimes. they all tended to make any tendency toward sibilance more an issue compared to other cartridges. but they did not create sibilance where it did not exist. personally i could live with it in balance, if otherwise i preferred it's performance. but many can't handle that occasional extra degree of highs.

obviously i don't now own any Colibri's, for whatever reasons.

when faced with performance artifacts of any product, to me it's what is the trade-off in judging the product? the important thing is getting a handle on what is gear or set-up artifact, and what is real musical content. that takes some work.

 

[Robh3606]

It is not a specific system he is asking analysis of, his post is to be interpreted as do you prefer systems that show unwanted details or not? In isolation of an example I would say “not”, but not when he gave the example that the unwanted sound is clearly on the recording and the pleasant system is masking it.

OK but what's a unwanted detail???? Recording in NYC you have subways and HVAC as examples that can and will be captured as well as chair squeaks rustling sheet music and coughs. That is all part of the experience as is sibilance potentially.

This seems like a no where to go here.

Designing equipment that is detail oriented as a detriment to musical enjoyment??? How do you do that??? Having a hard time wrapping my head around the premise.

It can be done with speakers by selectively tweaking the frequency response to enhance areas where details occur. That is a speaker voicing issue. Are companies deliberately doing that with electronics as well??

That kind of voicing becomes obvious.

Imaging is more speaker design and selection.

Rob

 

[morricab]

irrespective of whether it is on the recording or not? That data point does not make a difference to you?

His example says there is sibilante on both systems but just occasionally on one that is rich and full.

 

[PeterA]

His example says there is sibilante on both systems but just occasionally on one that is rich and full.

perhaps the recording changes when it’s moved from one system to the other.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

OK but what's a unwanted detail???? Recording in NYC you have subways and HVAC as examples that can and will be captured as well as chair squeaks rustling sheet music and coughs. That is all part of the experience as is sibilance potentially.

sibilance is a recording artifact to do with the mic and how it handles peaks and proximity. it's distortion. sometimes it's very slight and the recording/mastering process makes it worse. so it's in the media to a degree. it's not what you hear in real life from a voice. sure, a voice can make a sound like sibilance, but it's only like it, not really the same.

sometimes a mute trumpet will cause a recording to have distortion, or maybe the mastering makes it worse. similar to sibilance.

so ambient detail in a recording is not related to sibilance in my way of thinking. more like a head bump in the bass. just an artifact, and we have to listen around it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Let's take a recording with a female vocal, on one hi end system the vocal is full and rich with occasional sibilance. On a different hi end system the vocal is not as rich and has more pronounced sibilance. The sibilance is there in the recording, but with the first system it is less prominent. is the extra sibilance additional resolution or extraneous detail?

With Audacity you can analyze recordings to see whether it is really the recording or simply a different tuning of the speaker in the range of 2-8khz.

https://www.audacity.de/funktionen/

A sink from 2-4dB, also known as English tuning, e.g. BBC monitors, Harbeth, is usually popular there. This effectively suppresses sibilance.

 

[dcathro]

sibilance is a recording artifact to do with the mic and how it handles peaks and proximity. it's distortion. sometimes it's very slight and the recording/mastering process makes it worse. so it's in the media to a degree. it's not what you hear in real life from a voice. sure, a voice can make a sound like sibilance, but it's only like it, not really the same.

sometimes a mute trumpet will cause a recording to have distortion, or maybe the mastering makes it worse. similar to sibilance.

so ambient detail in a recording is not related to sibilance in my way of thinking. more like a head bump in the bass. just an artifact, and we have to listen around it.

Thanks Mike,

The sibilance is, as you say, in the recording as a product of the microphone and recording setup.

Now, how noticeable (annoying) it may be can be system dependent due to masking/unmasking. This has to do with both the frequency response and the dynamic energy output throughout the spectrum.

As you rightly say, to get a system right, you have to use a wide range of recordings.

 

[Robh3606]

sibilance is a recording artifact to do with the mic and how it handles peaks and proximity. it's distortion. sometimes it's very slight and the recording/mastering process makes it worse. so it's in the media to a degree. it's not what you hear in real life from a voice. sure, a voice can make a sound like sibilance, but it's only like it, not really the same.

sometimes a mute trumpet will cause a recording to have distortion, or maybe the mastering makes it worse. similar to sibilance.

so ambient detail in a recording is not related to sibilance in my way of thinking. more like a head bump in the bass. just an artifact, and we have to listen around it.

Hello Mike

OK point taken but if it's in the recording, distortion or not just because it may be a form of recording distortion doesn't undo it once there.

If you have a good pair of linear speakers how do you not reproduce it???

We are talking about systems somehow exaggerating detail no???

A speaker with a peak in that range would exaggerate it and could be voiced to do so.

But again how you tell if it is being exaggerated have not heard the original in real time???

Just seems to be very circular to me.

WRT different speakers I have Be drivers in my Array 1400's and I also own a pair of Revel Performa F-206's. As good as the Revels are the Be drivers obviously are the winner WRT high frequency detail.

I don't find the Be drivers to sound unnatural or to have excessive detail. They are both enjoyable systems in their own right.

Rob

 

[dcathro]

How can you choose a system that will let you hide extra unwanted stuff on one recording and if it is wanted, let it through - it needs to let through the recording. And then if you don't like something, e.g. sibilance, choose a recording without it.

Yes, it can be both a recording issue and/or a system issue.

Some recordings can have too much sibilance, and some systems can accentuate it/others mask it.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, it can be both a recording issue and/or a system issue.

Some recordings can have too much sibilance, and some systems can accentuate it/others mask it.

ideally one should have neither accentuating nor masking system. Then find a good recording.

if you don’t have the ideal, which is often the case as one is part of a journey, one just lives around the compromises..