Ron’s New System

[Al M.]

As prog albums go, I am not that impressed with it from a musicianship perspective. It was quite innovative with the sounds incorporated and the interesting compositions. I find Pink Floyd in general to sound very "samey" from album to album (starting with Meddle...before that they were all over the place) and I grew kind of board with that sound.

Initially I was not very impressed with the album either (I always thought more of Wish You Were Here), now I am. The compositions are splendid and quite unique. Yes, in terms of technical musicianship there is better playing in prog, but that's not the point for me.

I disagree that Pink Floyd sounds "same" from album to album after Meddle. You can't seriously state that when comparing Dark Side with The Wall (another masterpiece), for example.

 

[bonzo75]

Pink Floyd does sound mostly same and fake and special effects. In fact money is the only song I like as it is more bluesy

 

[Kingrex]

I was on another off-line group and a person made the point that these "technical " drummer who can do flash tricks are technically faster than say Neil Pert. But they are no Neil, or John or Keith. They are just fast or really good copy cats.

My point being, PF as a technical group is not impressive. They are not Rush. But from an artistic expression band, rhey stepped far ahead of all the others that stay in the neat lanes of 3 minute songs that do not offend.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Your focus should be optimum playback in the 80 dbs. Is the amp matched to the speaker at optimum volume levels.

Hi Rex!

You are ignoring the system-building philosophy point about headroom. Rather than targeting clipping at slightly higher than normal listening SPL, and solving for no clipping at normal listening SPL, the headroom philosophy is to afford the system enough power that there is no danger of amplifier clipping even at much higher than normal listening SPL.

The concern is that if there is clipping at 100dB then compression might be starting to build even at 90dB.

I have always adhered to the philosophy until recently, when I decided I had bigger sonic fish to fry.

If you have any further questions MikeL can elaborate, as he subscribes to the high headroom philosophy.

 

[bonzo75]

If you have any further questions MikeL can elaborate, as he subscribes to the high headroom philosophy.

As do SETs horns people.

 

[Kingrex]

I was on another off-line group and a person made the point that these "technical " drummer who can do flash tricks are technically faster than say Neil Pert. But they are no Neil, or John or Keith. They are just fast or really good copy cats.

Hi Rex!

You are ignoring the system-building philosophy point about headroom. Rather than targeting clipping at slightly higher than normal listening SPL, and solving for no clipping at normal listening SPL, the headroom philosophy is to afford the system enough power that there is no danger of amplifier clipping even at much higher than normal listening SPL.

The concern is that if there is clipping at 100dB then compression might be starting to build even at 90dB.

I have always adhered to the philosophy until recently, when I decided I had bigger sonic fish to fry.

If you have any further questions MikeL can elaborate, as he subscribes to the high headroom philosophy.

I get what your saying and agree. I think we are saying the same thing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why do people get broke up about speaker break up and distortion when DB are over 100. I have a friend with bad tinitus now from playing in the 90s. Your focus should be optimum playback in the 80 dbs. Is the amp matched to the speaker at optimum volume levels.

Hi Rex!

You are ignoring the system-building philosophy point about headroom. Rather than targeting clipping at slightly higher than normal listening SPL, and solving for no clipping at normal listening SPL, the headroom philosophy is to afford the system enough power that there is no danger of amplifier clipping even at much higher than normal listening SPL.

The concern is that if there is clipping at 100dB then compression might be starting to build even at 90dB.

I have always adhered to the philosophy until recently, when I decided I had bigger sonic fish to fry.

If you have any further questions MikeL can elaborate, as he subscribes to the high headroom philosophy.

real life has infinite headroom. reality just happens. and recordings can contain much of that, not all certainly. but playback will get tripped up on many parts of it. headroom actually starts with the room and the ability of the room to be able to deal with lots of air movement and not feel congested, the room needs to breathe. the speakers and room need to be able to 'hook up' and attain a level of control where the bass is physical, even at modest levels, yet the bass has to be able to have sustain without peaks or suck-outs and be able to decay naturally.

power grid the same. how much needed is maybe double of what you need to deliver 100% of any peak demand? so there is never any sense of a ceiling to the musical scale and ease.

you need to have plenty of driver surface to reduce driver extension to keep things linear.

and plenty of amplification so the amps are always linear even on peaks. where are the amps most linear? find a way to keep them in that realm.

and amps and speakers need to be linear and descend into the 10-20 hz range so it's solid in the 20 hz range for sneaky bass, ease and a sense of authority.

finally the amp<->speakers need a great first watt so the delicacy of the music can set the table for all the rest. a poor amp-speaker combo maybe needs too much power to get the music going and can't take you everywhere the music wants to go.

headroom is not everything. there are many excellent systems that don't check off every box in terms of headroom. it's not that important to everyone. but for a few fans of large scale music it is.

the idea is anywhere you lack headroom the reproduction will tell you about it in what is missing from the playback. and not just when you push things.

my system has headroom way above my toleration of high SPL's. it's still linear when i say "uncle". but i think the lack of distortion from my headroom everywhere allows me to listen louder when i choose without it feeling oppressive of painful. i can let it rip. but those moments are not very frequent. yet conversely, i get the 'big scale' feeling at lower SPL's too. so i can enjoy the physicality and connection of those moments often.

 

[Lagonda]

Pink Floyd does sound mostly same and fake and special effects. In fact money is the only song I like as it is more bluesy

You are just to young to appreciate the finer sides of Pink Floyd, Ked !

 

[Argonaut]

Here words are simply thrown into the room again. Cliiping means that the amplifier no longer correctly amplifies the sine signal from the input, for example. The sine curve is cut at the upper end, which initially produces no additional distortions. Only if you turn the volume up to 1.28 times the normal output power of the amplifier then you produces distortion of 10%.


View attachment 118616

With more power than the speaker can handle, it doesn't get any louder, it just distorts, heats and destroys even more! This is called compression (see picture).View attachment 118615
Compression range: Here the speaker no longer becomes louder in proportion to the increase in power. The causes are mechanical limitations and increasing resistance depending on temperature. The additional power is therefore used extremely ineffectively! Compression in dB is the distance between the real and theoretical volume.
I don't know the maximum value of the spl for the ribbon speakers. But they definitely reach their limit earlier than cone speakers at lower frequencies.

101 …

 

[Johan K]

I changed my post to "maybe clipping."

No, I did not hear that, but that is because I am unfamiliar with "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and Dark Side of the Moon.*

* By the way, other than for sound effects, why does anybody like "Money"? Or the whole album for that matter?

Pink Floyd is such an intelligent music group that it takes time to take in their music some times. You can listen to one of their albums a hundred times and find it not so special, and then the one-hundred-first time you listen to the same album you just go crazy because you find it so good! That is Pink Floyd in a nut shell!

Taste of music differs a lot and even if Pink Floyd is a world class band, it is fine to not like them too.

For my part, I just love them, and my favourites are ”Welcome To The Machine”, (from Wish You Were Here album) and ”Yet Another Movie” (from Delicate Sound Of Thunder live album). The Dark Side OF The Moon album is very dear to me as well??!

/ Jk

 

[PeterA]

* By the way, other than for sound effects, why does anybody like "Money"? Or the whole album for that matter?

Commenting on member's tastes in music is not often done here. This is an extremely popular song and album, and for good reason, IMO.

https://myrockmixtapes.com/2016/04/02/the-story-of-pink-floyds-money/

 

[morricab]

You are just to young to appreciate the finer sides of Pink Floyd, Ked !

I used to listen a lot to Floyd but then I noticed the sameness and got bored.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...BTW which one's Pink?

 

[Ron Resnick]

You are just to young to appreciate the finer sides of Pink Floyd, Ked !

Can I be too young, too, for the same reason?

 

[Argonaut]

...BTW which one's Pink?

And who the Hell is Floyd ?

 

[Folsom]

The concern is that if there is clipping at 100dB then compression might be starting to build even at 90dB.

What the fuck is building compression in relation to clipping? Clipping starts at very specific point, where you literally run out of voltage (gain) potential, and it's not compression because the information does not exist at your speakers.

The only thing that can be happening here even close to what you're saying is saturation of parts, which I mention all the time. I also mention at the same time that it's a problem greatly more so with SS than tube design.

 

[marty]

And who the Hell is Floyd ?

The original name of the band was "Tea Set" but legend has it they showed up at a gig and found another band there with the same name. This prompted Syd Barrett to rename the band with a new name by combining the first names of two American blues musicians, Pinkney "Pink" Anderson and Floyd Council.

Remember that Pink Floyd was one of the original psychedelic rock bands. Listening to their music can be enjoyable in any state, but its unique magic and power may not be as readily apparent unless you are inclined to practice better living through chemistry. (Gives "headroom" a new meaning! )

 

[Ron Resnick]

The only thing that can be happening here even close to what you're saying is saturation of parts, which I mention all the time.

Yes, saturation of parts!

 

[Argonaut]

The original name of the band was "Tea Set" but legend has it they showed up at a gig and found another band there with the same name. This prompted Syd Barrett to rename the band with a new name by combining the first names of two American blues musicians, Pinkney "Pink" Anderson and Floyd Council.

Remember that Pink Floyd was one of the original psychedelic rock bands. Listening to their music can be enjoyable in any state, but its unique magic and power may not be as readily apparent unless you are inclined to practice better living through chemistry. (Gives "headroom" a new meaning! )

Entirely incorrect … according to my insider source the band were so enamoured having met this gentleman and tried his cuisine that they re named the band … …https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Floyd

 

[the sound of Tao]

Commenting on member's tastes in music is not often done here. This is an extremely popular song and album, and for good reason, IMO.

https://myrockmixtapes.com/2016/04/02/the-story-of-pink-floyds-money/

I guess I’ve never had any issue if people don’t like music that I do… it’s no different to people not liking the same gear that I do. We talk about positive and negative experiences with gear all the time. If people get wound up because others feel differently about something like what music they do or don’t like that’s a bit crazy.

Everyone should feel more than comfortable about sharing their preferences for gear, music, food whatever without anyone thinking that it’s some kind of attack on someone else’s other preferences I’d have thought.

Maybe when people just use preferences as some point to unnecessarily constantly drive a wedge into the conversation or continuously drive a negative agenda that’s different… especially if that then eats away at the quality of the culture of discussion. But I’d have thought people sharing in a reasonably considered way that they do or don’t like things like types of music should still be able to part and parcel of good natured conversation.