More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

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Sorry, but this has absolutely nothing to do with audio quality.

With digital, it does not matter how far the signal has travelled or how many networks (wired or wireless) and servers it's been through before reaching your home.

The only thing that matters is what happens when the digital signal is received by the DAC.

From that point of view, where the digital files are stored and "how far they have travelled" is not significant.

What may change is the immediate electrical (wired or wireless) "environment" your DAC is connected to in your home, in so far as most if not all DACs are susceptible to incoming and surrounding interferences.

The difference between relying on a streaming service (Qobuz, Tidal...) or your own files stored somewhere on your home network only has to do with the content. With streaming services, you have millions of albums available, but you may not always have the best version of any given album.
Sure, but then who needs a fancy streamer? The computer scientist in me agrees with you (my left brain!), but my persistently nagging right brain disagrees. Many many years ago, I believed that all that matters is getting the bits to a DAC, and even the DAC doesn’t matter. Heck, when I was young and naive, 40 some years ago I invested in a Sony Discman (anyone remember those?). I told myself, that’s it, it’s the ultimate sound source, who needs anything more. When I hooked it up to my then grad student system, I was shocked. It sounded simply awful. Yes, if you read the Sony specs on the original Discman, it said 90+ dB S/N ratio, blah blah, but when you actually hooked it up and listened to it, something didn’t add up. It sounded emaciated. Weak.

40+ years later of listening to countless systems, 3 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 40 years, nothing has changed my mind. Yes, the theory says all that matters are the bits going into the DAC. In practice, I think there’s more to it. I keep around a range of DACs at home, all the way from a lowly but measurement wise impressive Topping D90 (which I bought for a paltry $500), to the mighty impressive Lampizator Pacific (hugely more expensive). If you compare the Lampi with the Topping, you’d know in an instant the difference between high end and mass market, and why the simple “all that matters is the bits going into the DAC” ain’t necessarily so.

But, if you do believe all that matters is the bits going into the DAC, you can save yourself a huge pile of money and just get the Topping D90. Heck, there are $200 DACs now that measure just as well (check out audiosciencereview.com). Like I said, I keep around the cheap stuff just to remind myself every now and then why I invest in the high end. It’s always good to have a sanity check.

Sure, an el cheapo throw away car might get you to where you want to go, but ride in my Tesla S, and you’ll quickly know the difference between a quality automobile and an el cheapo car. Whether you think it’s worth investing in a quality car is a different story. You might think that an el cheapo car is all you need. I can‘t disagree with you there. But, hey, I have free unlimited super charging, I can go coast to coast free of paying any money, and my car gets 0-60 in less than 2.5 seconds. And I probably can drive it a million miles and it will still work just fine (I’ll have to change tires every 50,000 miles, but other than that, there’s hardly any maintenance).
 
This is an interesting , thoughtful post. However, my experience is that streaming, given a good quality recording, provides a wonderful, “high end” experience. I’ve also found streamed and files to be equal in sound quality. It’s honestly been a struggle to get my system to this point and it’s only been in the last year that I can say I’m completely satisfied. It’s been worth the struggle.
I’d encourage everyone to watch the wonderful Netflix series called “The Playlist” to see the invention of streaming by the tech pioneer Daniel Ek in Sweden, who is still the CEO of Spotiy, still the most profitable streaming company (with a market cap in the tens of billions of dollars). The fundamental problem of streaming is getting the bits to you in *real time*, which is a huge challenge that Daniel Ek and his team of hackers had to solve. If you know a little bit of the tech behind how the internet works (which was solved 60+ years ago by funding from the Defense Department by a bunch of computer scientists), the TCP/IP protocol was not designed for music streaming. It was intended for sending text messages (then, it was over phone lines!). Slowly, inch by inch, computer scientists have figured out how to overcome the issues with TCP/IP.


In the Netflix series, Daniel Ek struggles with his team to get around the inherent latencies with TCP/IP. At one point, they realize that they can simply hack around it, that the redundancy in the protocol can be discarded for music streaming because ”no one will hear the difference” (that’s a rough quote from the movie). Fundamentally, the way you hack around TCP/IP for music streaming is to compromise a bit on the inherent failsafe transmission that TCP/IP provides. For real time streaming, you have to do that. It’s quite different from streaming bits from a CD player (which also has to do some error checking using the Reed Solomon code to overcome the unavoidable errors the lasers make in reading an optical disc), but it‘s much worse with TCP/IP. As I said, it’s truly a miracle that it works. If you had told me 30 years ago, we would be able to stream 4K on the Internet, I would have laughed. But, here we are.

One of my former academic colleagues Invented overlay networks, without which you could not stream 4K and watch Netflix. He went on to co-found Akamai, which is the mega cloud server network that *everyone* relies on to get their streaming to work. Read the technical wizardry behind this concept:


But, it was never intended to be a high end product. Just as the Internet was never intended to be a vehicle for e-commerce. But, slowly computer scientists figured out how to do reliable financial transactions on the Internet using cool ideas like RSA encryption. Clearly, we need to rethink the entire Internet, and that was partly the motivation behind Bitcoin. Ultimately, the blockchain is where we should be going, but that‘s like saying the US should give up on the silly “foot pounds” obsolete standard and move to the more scientific Metric system (”kilogram meter”) that is the basis for all science today. Is it going to happen? Not in my lifetime! So, we are stuck with the current Internet architecture with all its problems. But we can put band aids on it, one at a time. That makes us enjoy stuff like streaming or buying whatever we want on the web, even if it’s not an ideal architecture for that.
 
I also checked my Roon set up choices but all they allow is to set a preference for what shows up first as far as versions.
Roon finally made it possible to completely avoid MQA in those settings :cool:
 
For me "streaming" means to get media on demand through the internet. I can not influence how fast streaming data arrives at my house. Where is the actual content physically located? Is it pushed through a Content Distribution Network like Akamai to local edge servers? Is it hosted (like Qobuz) on Amazon (AWS)? Where is the next AWS datacenter located? What bandwidth does my local ISP have with Amazon? Is it governed by a Quality of Service (QoS) policy?

We just don't know and the local infrastructure will be different in New York or in small town in rural Austria or Australia. That's why for me, streaming is a convenience but not something where I make an effort to make it sound "high end" or audiophile. I like streaming to look for new music or fulfil some spontaneous music requests by guests. However, I don't regard it as a high quality source. If I like music and want to include it in my collection, I buy it as a CD or a digital edition and download to my local music server (Aurender N30SA).

Only when music is on a local disc at my home, I can control how the files are processed and ultimately converted to analog to be played on a hifi system.
 
Graeme, good points. I think I just meant the "the universe of music at your fingertips" concept.
Marc slipping into an additional whole universe of music can have a dramatic fundamental impact a good ways beyond any convenience though.

Convenient for me is more like being able to get milk at the local service station instead of having to drive to the supermarket. Having exponentially greater music access over a period of time can be much more life changing.

Not wanting to set off my hounds of hyperbole but access to such a phenomenally different level of music over a decade can fundamentally alter the relationship we have with music in this whole of life pursuit… and for me I’ve found that good.

It certainly has placed me back on a more dominantly music-centric path as an audiophile after a time earlier when I had strayed into a more sound quality/gear focused period (when that was what I needed to be more focused on)… in ways this more universal level of music exposure has been an intensive blast and more of a complete rectification in the hobby for me. But it’s easily going to have different kinds of impacts (also at different times) for any of us I’d figure.
 
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Sure, but then who needs a fancy streamer? The computer scientist in me agrees with you (my left brain!), but my persistently nagging right brain disagrees. Many many years ago, I believed that all that matters is getting the bits to a DAC, and even the DAC doesn’t matter. Heck, when I was young and naive, 40 some years ago I invested in a Sony Discman (anyone remember those?). I told myself, that’s it, it’s the ultimate sound source, who needs anything more. When I hooked it up to my then grad student system, I was shocked. It sounded simply awful. Yes, if you read the Sony specs on the original Discman, it said 90+ dB S/N ratio, blah blah, but when you actually hooked it up and listened to it, something didn’t add up. It sounded emaciated. Weak.

40+ years later of listening to countless systems, 3 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 40 years, nothing has changed my mind. Yes, the theory says all that matters are the bits going into the DAC. In practice, I think there’s more to it. I keep around a range of DACs at home, all the way from a lowly but measurement wise impressive Topping D90 (which I bought for a paltry $500), to the mighty impressive Lampizator Pacific (hugely more expensive). If you compare the Lampi with the Topping, you’d know in an instant the difference between high end and mass market, and why the simple “all that matters is the bits going into the DAC” ain’t necessarily so.

But, if you do believe all that matters is the bits going into the DAC, you can save yourself a huge pile of money and just get the Topping D90. Heck, there are $200 DACs now that measure just as well (check out audiosciencereview.com). Like I said, I keep around the cheap stuff just to remind myself every now and then why I invest in the high end. It’s always good to have a sanity check.

Sure, an el cheapo throw away car might get you to where you want to go, but ride in my Tesla S, and you’ll quickly know the difference between a quality automobile and an el cheapo car. Whether you think it’s worth investing in a quality car is a different story. You might think that an el cheapo car is all you need. I can‘t disagree with you there. But, hey, I have free unlimited super charging, I can go coast to coast free of paying any money, and my car gets 0-60 in less than 2.5 seconds. And I probably can drive it a million miles and it will still work just fine (I’ll have to change tires every 50,000 miles, but other than that, there’s hardly any maintenance).

I did not mean to imply that DACs don't matter, on the contrary. As mentioned, most if not all DACs are susceptible to the quality of the digital signal (jitter, noise).

But whether the file you are playing is stored locally on your home network, or thousands of miles away on a "cloud server" probably makes little difference.

When playing a file from a streaming service, the file content is transferred to your local "player", and the local player transforms it into a digital audio signal (just like what a CD player does).

Once you accept the idea that DACs are "imperfect", and susceptible to the "noise spectrum" of the incoming digital signal, then it makes little sense to think in terms of streaming versus local files. Every component in your home audio configuration becomes critical, and every component is unique (in terms of noise spectrum). So the consequence is that comparisons between two systems also becomes very difficult. The recipe applied in one system may not work when applied in another.

One person could have better results with streaming as opposed to local files because some component (hardware or software) in their system is slightly different in both cases. Another person may find it works the other way around. It is impossible to generalize.
 
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When you play a track via the windows app, it says it's FLAC or MQA, no mention of the bit/sampling rate.
Assume with the album mentioned is 24/48 FLAC as opposed to 24/192 on Qobuz.

In case it is unclear to anybody, FLAC is a container format, so MQA can be delivered within FLAC (which I believe Tidal does).

So FLAC from Tidal could be either MQA, or a true lossless stream like 16bit/44.1khz or hirez.
 
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Doubt it, do you have a link to an article that confirms this?




 
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Excellent points. But why bother with this, if this is not your objective in the hobby? just pull out the old McIntosh transport, and it annihilates the Taiko - just like Valin describes:

"...Switching over to hi-res streaming via Qobuz was, once again, a shock. I'm used to streaming; I've grown to like it (or, at least, to tolerate it). But in comparison to the physical disc, the sound of the Qobuz stream of Blues for the Soul through the Dream-Play XC DAC was like the taste of a glass of 2019 Chateau De Beaucastel Chateauneuf Du-Pape Hommage à Jacques Perrin into which some fool has poured an equal amount of tap water. Everything was weakened, watered down, diluted in color, flattened in body, made ordinary, listless, digitally flavorless. ..."


But as I mentioned, Audio is a very personal and subjective hobby: we all have different experiences that we bring and base our judgments on, and we have different goals for our enjoyment.
Thank you. The main reason they are excellent points is that Valin’s points are only correct for a non-audio-optimised network.
Networks were originally designed to move data files from one point to another, say from a storage device to a client server or cpu. Thought was given to speed, cost and data integrity of the final file. It was no problem if there were errors along the way, as long as the final file was a bit perfect copy of the original, the goal was met. Audio, it turns out is a very different kettle of fish, but few have actually recognised that fact. In audio, the quality of the bits arriving at the client plays a HUGE role in the quality of the final sound, the DAC produces. It helps if the file is bit perfect but that’s really only one of many considerations. The voltage structure of the actual bits, how accurately and perfectly they achieve the polarity switches (or not), how much voltage noise is included, how many timing errors are included etc. In other words, how perfectly the bits of the data stream are structured or stated in networking terminology, how perfect the physical layer of the final bit stream is. It turns out that a network can be structured to move audio files around, just like the initial network design committees intended. It can be done cheaply and easily using consumer grade electronics to convert and transmit the bitstream and the resulting network will function flawlessly, producing music just like Valin reports.
But, BUT, the network can, in addition, be structured to IMPROVE the quality of the physical layer and thus the quality of the final sound produced by the DAC and believe me, those differences can be huge. Those differences can take a watered down digital rendition of the music, as reported by Valin and improve it to the point it completely blows away the best Analog or Digital in EVERY aspect. Dynamics, detail, imaging, sense of realism, creation of an acoustic venue, feelings and emotions, pace, rhythm, timing, sense of complexity, physical presence, everything.
So how is a network structured to achieve such a miraculous result? The answer is based on network design logic. Let’s say you replace a really poor Puma chipset-based router with something better based on say Broadcom chips. Most halfway decent systems will show a considerable improvement in sound quality. In order to achieve that, that improvement at the router has to pass through the rest of the network components….bridges, switches, servers, streamers etc before it gets to the DAC. This has PROFOUND implications. For that improvement to pass through all the other other components, the network has to operate on a Better in = better out basis. The better the incoming bitstream, the better the outgoing bitstream, in terms of the sound quality it produces. Further, it means that every component within the network has an effect on the final sound quality. It turns out that any improvement in noise reduction, jitter reduction etc can be heard in the final sound. Improve the power supply to a modem or router, or a bridge, or a server and the improvement can be heard as an improvement in sound quality. There are literally millions of piecemeal anecdotal reports about this on every hi-fi forum on the internet. But that’s not all. Far from it!
Let’s say you improve the accuracy of a clock in the router, reducing timing errors. You MAY hear a small difference or maybe not. It depends on what comes later on in the bitstream. If you take an output with a 10 ppm clock accuracy and feed it into a downstream device with a 100ppm accurate clock, you have essentially reset your bitstream clock accuracy to 100pm ie you have lost the benefit of a 10ppm clock. To improve network sound quality, it’s essential that what is constructed is an ‘improvement cascade’ where every component has the same or better performance than the preceding components. That way, you maximised the Better in = Better out aspects and every stage improves the quality of the data stream’s physical layer as it flows through the network.

The biggest difference between an analog and a digital signal is that an analog signal can only deteriorate…ie you can add but not remove noise, whereas with a digital signal, which is converted and resynthesized multiple times, the data stream has the potential for major improvement. Not only that, but the better in = better out aspect means that in an improvement cascade, improvements early in the network keep improving at all later stages, exactly like compounding interest.
I built a network exactly using these principles and i was stunned by the results. There was no law of diminishing returns that I ever found and the resulting sound quality was truly mindblowing.
It turns out that ALL sources of noise have a negative effect on sound qualty. Timing, power supplies, component vibration, EMI, RFI, error correction etc. Galvanic isolation works to reduce electronic noise, better clocks reduce jitter and therefore phase noise, reducing non-audio network traffic by isolating the audio stream from the rest of the domestic network, using low impedance, star earthed cable screening, components optimised for low EMI etc. will all have an effect. Arranging them in an improvement cascade means that the final bit stream hitting the DAC has as perfect a physical layer as you can make and the difference that makes in sound quality is huge
He
Think of network noise as Valin’s water diluting his wine and you get the idea. By the time I’d completed my entire network optimization I was getting sound quality that I never believed possible from digital or from 2 channel stereo of any type. The completeness and believability of the 4 dimensional music the system could produce can only be heard to be believed. Its ability to generate intense feelings and emotions is utterly compelling and completely addictive.

So I’m certain what Valin reports is what he heard. No doubt whatsoever. BUT my point is, it doesn‘t have to be that way if you put as much emphasis on perfecting the network in ways I have outlined as you put into the rest of the system.
 
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Thank you. The main reason they are excellent points is that Valin’s points are only correct for a non-audio-optimised network.
Networks were originally designed to move data files from one point to another, say from a storage device to a client server or cpu. Thought was given to speed, cost and data integrity of the final file. It was no problem if there were errors along the way, as long as the final file was a bit perfect copy of the original, the goal was met. Audio, it turns out is a very different kettle of fish, but few have actually recognised that fact. In audio, the quality of the bits arriving at the client plays a HUGE role in the quality of the final sound, the DAC produces. It helps if the file is bit perfect but that’s really only one of many considerations. The voltage structure of the actual bits, how accurately and perfectly they achieve the polarity switches (or not), how much voltage noise is included, how many timing errors are included etc. In other words, how perfectly the bits of the data stream are structured or stated in networking terminology, how perfect the physical layer of the final bit stream is. It turns out that a network can be structured to move audio files around, just like the initial network design committees intended. It can be done cheaply and easily using consumer grade electronics to convert and transmit the bitstream and the resulting network will function flawlessly, producing music just like Valin reports.
But, BUT, the network can, in addition, be structured to IMPROVE the quality of the physical layer and thus the quality of the final sound produced by the DAC and believe me, those differences can be huge. Those differences can take a watered down digital rendition of the music, as reported by Valin and improve it to the point it completely blows away the best Analog or Digital in EVERY aspect. Dynamics, detail, imaging, sense of realism, creation of an acoustic venue, feelings and emotions, pace, rhythm, timing, sense of complexity, physical presence, everything.
So how is a network structured to achieve such a miraculous result? The answer is based on network design logic. Let’s say you replace a really poor Puma chipset-based router with something better based on say Broadcom chips. Most halfway decent systems will show a considerable improvement in sound quality. In order to achieve that, that improvement at the router has to pass through the rest of the network components….bridges, switches, servers, streamers etc before it gets to the DAC. This has PROFOUND implications. For that improvement to pass through all the other other components, the network has to operate on a Better in = better out basis. The better the incoming bitstream, the better the outgoing bitstream, in terms of the sound quality it produces. Further, it means that every component within the network has an effect on the final sound quality. It turns out that any improvement in noise reduction, jitter reduction etc can be heard in the final sound. Improve the power supply to a modem or router, or a bridge, or a server and the improvement can be heard as an improvement in sound quality. There are literally millions of piecemeal anecdotal reports about this on every hi-fi forum on the internet. But that’s not all. Far from it!
Let’s say you improve the accuracy of a clock in the router, reducing timing errors. You MAY hear a small difference or maybe not. It depends on what comes later on in the bitstream. If you take an output with a 10 ppm clock accuracy and feed it into a downstream device with a 100ppm accurate clock, you have essentially reset your bitstream clock accuracy to 100pm ie you have lost the benefit of a 10ppm clock. To improve network sound quality, it’s essential that what is constructed is an ‘improvement cascade’ where every component has the same or better performance than the preceding components. That way, you maximised the Better in = Better out aspects and every stage improves the quality of the data stream’s physical layer as it flows through the network.

The biggest difference between an analog and a digital signal is that an analog signal can only deteriorate…ie you can add but not remove noise, whereas with a digital signal, which is converted and resynthesized multiple times, the data stream has the potential for major improvement. Not only that, but the better in = better out aspect means that in an improvement cascade, improvements early in the network keep improving at all later stages, exactly like compounding interest.
I built a network exactly using these principles and i was stunned by the results. There was no law of diminishing returns that I ever found and the resulting sound quality was truly mindblowing.
It turns out that ALL sources of noise have a negative effect on sound qualty. Timing, power supplies, component vibration, EMI, RFI, error correction etc. Galvanic isolation works to reduce electronic noise, better clocks reduce jitter and therefore phase noise, reducing non-audio network traffic by isolating the audio stream from the rest of the domestic network, using low impedance, star earthed cable screening, components optimised for low EMI etc. will all have an effect. Arranging them in an improvement cascade means that the final bit stream hitting the DAC has as perfect a physical layer as you can make and the difference that makes in sound quality is huge

Think of network noise as Valin’s water diluting his wine and you get the idea. By the time I’d completed by entire network optimization I was getting sound quality that I never believed possible from digital or from 2 channel stereo of any type. The completeness and believability of the 4 dimensional music the system could produce can only be heard to be believed. Its ability to generate intense feelings and emotions is utterly compelling and completely addictive.

So I’m certain what Valin reports is what he heard. No doubt whatsoever. BUT my point is, it doesn‘t have to be that way if you put as much emphasis on perfecting the network in ways I have outlined as you put into the rest of the system.

All this emphasizes the need for better designed DACs, which would not require any of the complex or expensive solutions you describe. By the way, the issues occur whether you are streaming, playing local files (even without an internet connection) or using a CD player.

No wonder people shy away from digital audio!

The DAC I use claims to have achieved good source immunity - I believe they have, but that's just my personal opinion.

I understand MSB has developed some innovative solutions as well - but at a very high price point.

There may be others...

Unfortunately, in digital audio there is very little knowledge sharing between engineers, and they keep their "recipes" to themselves.
 
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What is "good source immunity ...".

Good question. It means that the same track will sound the same regardless of how it is played (hardware or software used). Of course, you could argue that this is no guarantee of optimal sound quality. That's for everyone to figure out.
 
No wonder people shy away from digital audio!

100% of the content in the post you replied to is made up, so it's not really necessary to shy away from digital.
 
This DIY Lampucera video on YouTube might be of interest to all of you who are digging deep into DACs, perhaps for some perspective on what goes into them, as well as their evolution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hkb1r3xRv0

Kudos to the use of "recipe" rather than "engine" (sic).

A
 
Why do guys who does not have any clue how a network works, how a streamer works, how a CD player works, how a DAC works, how recordings are made, and how analog circuitry is made, still offer advice to others? I mean, if you say "this is a bad idea, because of this explaination", and the explaination has nothing at all to do with what is going on in any way or form. What kind of value does this have for others?
 
Why do guys who does not have any clue how a network works, how a streamer works, how a CD player works, how a DAC works, how recordings are made, and how analog circuitry is made, still offer advice to others? I mean, if you say "this is a bad idea, because of this explaination", and the explaination has nothing at all to do with what is going on in any way or form. What kind of value does this have for others?

What "advice" are you referring to?
 
Good Q sound is all about the recording whether its LP Tape or Digital.
Bad and good examples exist of all formats

Hard to disagree with that!
But the question here is whether a given track can sound "better" in different "digital configurations".
 
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