What I am saying is that the assessment may not be entirely accurate. The general image is well received, but the details, which are much debated here, raise questions.
We are all different. I respect your opinion, but mine is a bit different. This is normal.
There will never be objectivity in this matter. I have witnessed many times how one audition was evaluated by different people with a diametrical difference.
To be clear, objectivity left the building when the topic was SETs
Dead horse. Beaten.To be clear, objectivity left the building when the topic was SETs
The reason people like them is due to how they make distortion, although this is true of any amplifier that has a following. Its just that SETs make so much distortion that if you want anything like 'neutral' you only have about 20% usable power (as opposed to full power right at clipping). If your speakers lack the efficiency needed to work with that sort of power you won't really get to hear what the SET can do.
The thing is, if you put an SET on an even playing field with a push-pull amp, you'll find it has no advantages over that push-pull amp. An 'even playing field' means a PP amp of the same power, made with similar parts quality and similar attention to competent circuit design. Or perhaps the same kind of output tubes as used in the SET (as a non-objective anecdotal example, I have compared a type 45 SET to a type 45 PP amp and the SET was unable to compete in any meaningful way- the PP amp was smoother mids and highs, more detailed, better able to delineate vocals, had better bass, more speed and was overall more engaging) and otherwise the same quality parts.
I really don't think objectivity is anything to worry about here. If we're going to speak truth to power, its only all about fun and nothing else. So just enjoy it. Or get a better amp and enjoy that...
You haven't heard a good SET amplifier. Any PP amplifier is nervously smoked in a corner compared to it.
I agree with the general idea that such a video, similarly to a review or the opinion of a fellow audiophile whose tastes are to be trusted, may serve as a starting point or springboard so to speak to pursue music or a design or even brand, i.e. to gather first-hand impressions and experience oneself, and form one's own opinion - but they're hardly more than that, at best an amuse-bouche.
I've heard many SETs. What you are saying (without knowing me, but if we give your comment the benefit of the doubt) suggests that most SETs are junk
I don't know you, but your words describe you. In order not to start an absentee discussion on the topic of SET vs PP, read the review about the sound of a good SETI've heard many SETs. What you are saying (without knowing me, but if we give your comment the benefit of the doubt) suggests that most SETs are junk
You are incorrect about the 1st Watt thing and the larger odd harmonics. The issue is topology; some PP amps may well have the problem you describe, but most don't. They have a different problem, where single-ended and PP circuits are combined in the same amp, which results in both a quadratic non-linearity and a cubic non-linearity, resulting in a prominent 5th harmonic (which is similar but not the same as you describe). That can be avoided with careful design. BTW I'm not saying the 1st Watt isn't important- everyone knows it is. What I am saying is a PP amp can have a 1st Watt better than any SET.
The other apples and oranges (not on an even playing field) have to do with improperly applied negative feedback, which results in a greater amount of higher ordered harmonics (similar to what you might be describing, as that doesn't sound very good) and the class of operation (AB instead of A1).
So often when an SET is compared to a PP amp, the PP amp usually has these three problems thus described.
So to even the playing field, the PP amp needs to have the same class of operation and no feedback, as well as either the same output power at clipping or the same power tubes as the SET (take your pick). I've found though that if you apply feedback properly it does not hurt the 1st Watt at all.
Now what an SET can do that most PP amps with feedback cannot is have a ruler flat distortion vs frequency curve across the audio band. I can get into the engineering about how this is so (and probably did earlier on this thread). Its one of the more salient reasons amps can sound amusical. But you can have a PP amp do that just as well if you know what you're doing.
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Emphasis added. Neither would I, nor is that what I said.I don't know you, but your words describe you. In order not to start an absentee discussion on the topic of SET vs PP, read the review about the sound of a good SET
Of course, there are PP sound connoisseurs, from my experience it is 1/3, if not 1/4, of the total number of listeners, but I would not say that any PP amp is better than any SET.What are some great 300B SET amps $5-7K?
Can't wait to try them at my place How long do you have to wait? I am interested in the result.
I believe that general feedback is death for the sound, so I hardly use it, the most I can afford is unshunted cathode resistors. Therefore, I know very well that the PP amplifier cannot sound good on the bass at low output power. Physics is a hard science and no one has yet been able to overcome its laws. According to these laws, the core material of the output transformer in weak magnetic fields has a low mu. This leads to a drop in the inductance of the output transformer and, as a result, insufficient bass. As the output power increases, the magnetic induction increases, the inductance and bass increase accordingly.
In budget models, this effect is overcome by introducing feedback. This also reduces the magnitude of harmonics, but their spectrum becomes very broad, and the character does not change.
This wide range of harmonics makes the sound dead, almost like transistors.
I did not write that with the same tubes and components, I repent.
Push pull by its very nature provides a large degree of even order distortion cancellation, leaving the odd order harmonics behind and exposed, if the two halves of the push pull are perfectly matched. The even order that creeps into the measurements of most push pull amps is due to the non-perfect execution and/or device matching. Of course this could also be done deliberately. So, the pattern is quite different between the two topologies and this has audible consequences. Keith Howard did experiments on these patterns by adding the distortion digitally to recordings and he found that a predominantly odd order pattern was by far the most offensive sounding. The same level of odd order distortion with the even order added back in was significantly more palatable. So much for your hypothesis that the 3rd order also masks like the 2nd. You need the preceeding harmonic to be higher than the following harmonic to provide the masking. Remove the evens and you remove the masking as the gap is too large to the next harmonics. The odd harmonics above 3rd are also well known to be unpleasant to humans, often metallic and edgy sounding. Expose them and that edge creeps in and sounds unnatural.To be clear, objectivity left the building when the topic was SETs
The reason people like them is due to how they make distortion, although this is true of any amplifier that has a following. Its just that SETs make so much distortion that if you want anything like 'neutral' you only have about 20% usable power (as opposed to full power right at clipping). If your speakers lack the efficiency needed to work with that sort of power you won't really get to hear what the SET can do.
The thing is, if you put an SET on an even playing field with a push-pull amp, you'll find it has no advantages over that push-pull amp. An 'even playing field' means a PP amp of the same power, made with similar parts quality and similar attention to competent circuit design. Or perhaps the same kind of output tubes as used in the SET (as a non-objective anecdotal example, I have compared a type 45 SET to a type 45 PP amp and the SET was unable to compete in any meaningful way- the PP amp was smoother mids and highs, more detailed, better able to delineate vocals, had better bass, more speed and was overall more engaging) and otherwise the same quality parts.
I really don't think objectivity is anything to worry about here. If we're going to speak truth to power, its only all about fun and nothing else. So just enjoy it. Or get a better amp and enjoy that...
I don't really disagree with most what you re saying, but Nelson Pass has written about this topic of third harmonics, they made several test about this in pass labs how different listeners feel about harmonics:
This aspect, the complexity of the music and/or number of instruments playing, tends to get overlooked - agree wholeheartedly. It’s one reason (of several) why classical music aficionados don’t seem to like the same systems (or components such as amps and DACs) as audiophiles who listen to different types of music - something I’ve been noticing for years. Needless to say, once one starts to pay attention to audiophiles’ tastes in music, it’s easy to understand why systems that do everything equally well are the rarest: because mostly everyone prioritizes.
