Munich HighEnd 2024
- Thread starter redandgold
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Al, I’m not complaining about our times. I am suggesting that polarization may be a characterization of our times. It is not a complaint. I find it quite interesting.
Peter, polarization has been a characteristic of all times. The digital vs analog debate was vehement and brutal already in the 80s. On a much larger level, the Vietnam War was harshly polarizing. I could go on.
That’s interesting. I had thought that once digital was released, people all over started selling their record collections, and it was a collective action and agreement that the industry was moving towards digital. Same from tubes to transistors and from horns to cones. It seems to me that the mainstream industry was moving in a very clear direction before, but since then there has been a return to tubes and horns and turntables, kind of a revival from the few holdouts and hobbyists to more mainstream. Now you have these big shows where all typologies are being developed and advanced. All are represented and displayed proudly. There are now more alternatives and people find themselves in camps Or at least gravitating towards a particular approach. It’s hard to say that the industry is moving in a singular clear direction with the possible exception of streaming. I may be completely wrong.
Magistra Vitae , or to quote George Santayana: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
The 'process' I referred to is of a metaphysical or more appropriately, spiritual nature.
It's (somewhat) similar to PeterA's audio journey.
Superficially summarized: increasing awareness through a number of 'events'.
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Seems like there is a lot of confusion about the Aries Cerat room. Billygxx and I were in that room quite a few times over the course of the show weekend.
There is a lot of validity for the polarizing sound, but not for the emotionally charged derogatory comments IMO. I spoke about this in my show wrap up report, but I didn't go into great detail. To expect that a system like this which has never been released into the wilderness of the show circuit and expect it was going to be close to 100% is wishful thinking, My appraisal having heard it in Cyprus with Billygxx was that it was better in Cyprus without the extra bass cabinets and dual driver for mid bass. Of course that was with untold hours of setup in a treated room so we know what they should sound like.
So to quote Inigo from Princess Bride: "Let me explain... No there is too much to explain...let me sum up.."
Day 1 - The speakers were toed in quite heavily and created an X pattern in the front row. They are VERY directional, but they also throw a lot of energy moving massive amounts of air. Especially in the mid bass horn (2 compression drivers through one horn).
--Result: There was an overloading of the sweet spot combined with 2-3 clicks too loud playback volume that caused a sensory overload, vs being nuanced and delicate without exaggerating one FR. Soundstage was more in between speakers than wide outside of speakers.
Day 2 - I was supposed to record that morning before showers arrived (perks of the job), but ended up working with Stavros to play with better positioning (more toe out and chair repositioning). This took the full hour I had to record so I had to come back that evening to do the II, III, and IV videos. The speakers still did not disappear and the image was blurred compared to point source speakers at the show and that is a drawback of room dimensions. You have to setup for 20+ people and not a single seated position so that was the tradeoff he felt was best.
--Result: The soundstage on day 2 was much better. The imaging was much better, and it had more depth of field which is attributed to improved setup.
Day 3 - Wasn't there until end of day to shoot some more video of an interview, but the speaker system had settled in a bit more and the bass was better, full bodied, and had definition.
Final Thoughts: Depending on which day, which song, and which volume setting you listened to it at you may have had a different experience. There are many rooms that I am sure people did not like, but there isn't an abundance of focus on being OVERLY critical of those rooms, just this one. If I had to guess it is probably to do with the expectation was so high. I think people really wanted that room to be more amazing that it was for them and as a result were very upset by that. Even I had a polarizing experience where some tracks I absolutely loved and some that were a big miss. If the bass horns were not a factor in creating full range the ESD room would have been a better room for those speakers, but alas the bass horns would not allow then to fit widthwise (I think).They like distance for driver integration and less toe In (which my Symphonies I spent over 300 hours to dial those in). Try taking that amount of time and condensing it into 30-60 min a day
.
PS the real star of the that room is the Pandora Turntable so it is a moot point
There is a lot of validity for the polarizing sound, but not for the emotionally charged derogatory comments IMO. I spoke about this in my show wrap up report, but I didn't go into great detail. To expect that a system like this which has never been released into the wilderness of the show circuit and expect it was going to be close to 100% is wishful thinking, My appraisal having heard it in Cyprus with Billygxx was that it was better in Cyprus without the extra bass cabinets and dual driver for mid bass. Of course that was with untold hours of setup in a treated room so we know what they should sound like.
So to quote Inigo from Princess Bride: "Let me explain... No there is too much to explain...let me sum up.."
Day 1 - The speakers were toed in quite heavily and created an X pattern in the front row. They are VERY directional, but they also throw a lot of energy moving massive amounts of air. Especially in the mid bass horn (2 compression drivers through one horn).
--Result: There was an overloading of the sweet spot combined with 2-3 clicks too loud playback volume that caused a sensory overload, vs being nuanced and delicate without exaggerating one FR. Soundstage was more in between speakers than wide outside of speakers.
Day 2 - I was supposed to record that morning before showers arrived (perks of the job), but ended up working with Stavros to play with better positioning (more toe out and chair repositioning). This took the full hour I had to record so I had to come back that evening to do the II, III, and IV videos. The speakers still did not disappear and the image was blurred compared to point source speakers at the show and that is a drawback of room dimensions. You have to setup for 20+ people and not a single seated position so that was the tradeoff he felt was best.
--Result: The soundstage on day 2 was much better. The imaging was much better, and it had more depth of field which is attributed to improved setup.
Day 3 - Wasn't there until end of day to shoot some more video of an interview, but the speaker system had settled in a bit more and the bass was better, full bodied, and had definition.
Final Thoughts: Depending on which day, which song, and which volume setting you listened to it at you may have had a different experience. There are many rooms that I am sure people did not like, but there isn't an abundance of focus on being OVERLY critical of those rooms, just this one. If I had to guess it is probably to do with the expectation was so high. I think people really wanted that room to be more amazing that it was for them and as a result were very upset by that. Even I had a polarizing experience where some tracks I absolutely loved and some that were a big miss. If the bass horns were not a factor in creating full range the ESD room would have been a better room for those speakers, but alas the bass horns would not allow then to fit widthwise (I think).They like distance for driver integration and less toe In (which my Symphonies I spent over 300 hours to dial those in). Try taking that amount of time and condensing it into 30-60 min a day
.
PS the real star of the that room is the Pandora Turntable so it is a moot point
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If there wan't continual churn, we'd be talking about music.
... but probably not here.
All these different opinions prove exactly why you need to hear gear yourself if you want to have the
best for you
If i didnt go id never knew what VTL could do ,as not many dealers have it on demo.
magazines churn out reference after reference usually to keep people and manufacturers happy.
What i learned is i need to upgrade my digital ,and buy the acoustic sound ultra tape collection.
For the rest sit still.
best for you
If i didnt go id never knew what VTL could do ,as not many dealers have it on demo.
magazines churn out reference after reference usually to keep people and manufacturers happy.
What i learned is i need to upgrade my digital ,and buy the acoustic sound ultra tape collection.
For the rest sit still.
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Seems like there is a lot of confusion about the Aries Cerat room. Billygxx and I were in that room quite a few times over the course of the show weekend.
There is a lot of validity for the polarizing sound, but not for the emotionally charged derogatory comments IMO. I spoke about this in my show wrap up report, but I didn't go into great detail. To expect that a system like this which has never been released into the wilderness of the show circuit and expect it was going to be close to 100% is wishful thinking, My appraisal having heard it in Cyprus with Billygxx was that it was better in Cyprus without the extra bass cabinets and dual driver for mid bass. Of course that was with untold hours of setup in a treated room so we know what they should sound like.
So to quote Inigo from Princess Bride: "Let me explain... No there is too much to explain...let me sum up.."
Day 1 - The speakers were toed in quite heavily and created an X pattern in the front row. They are VERY directional, but they also throw a lot of energy moving massive amounts of air. Especially in the mid bass horn (2 compression drivers through one horn).
--Result: There was an overloading of the sweet spot combined with 2-3 clicks too loud playback volume that caused a sensory overload, vs being nuanced and delicate without exaggerating one FR. Soundstage was more in between speakers than wide outside of speakers.
Day 2 - I was supposed to record that morning before showers arrived (perks of the job), but ended up working with Stavros to play with better positioning (more toe out and chair repositioning). This took the full hour I had to record so I had to come back that evening to do the II, III, and IV videos. The speakers still did not disappear and the image was blurred compared to point source speakers at the show and that is a drawback of room dimensions. You have to setup for 20+ people and not a single seated position so that was the tradeoff he felt was best.
--Result: The soundstage on day 2 was much better. The imaging was much better, and it had more depth of field which is attributed to improved setup.
Day 3 - Wasn't there until end of day to shoot some more video of an interview, but the speaker system had settled in a bit more and the bass was better, full bodied, and had definition.
Final Thoughts: Depending on which day, which song, and which volume setting you listened to it at you may have had a different experience. There are many rooms that I am sure people did not like, but there isn't an abundance of focus on being OVERLY critical of those rooms, just this one. If I had to guess it is probably to do with the expectation was so high. I think people really wanted that room to be more amazing that it was for them and as a result were very upset by that. Even I had a polarizing experience where some tracks I absolutely loved and some that were a big miss. If the bass horns were not a factor in creating full range the ESD room would have been a better room for those speakers, but alas the bass horns would not allow then to fit widthwise (I think).They like distance for driver integration and less toe In (which my Symphonies I spent over 300 hours to dial those in). Try taking that amount of time and condensing it into 30-60 min a day
.
PS the real star of the that room is the Pandora Turntable so it is a moot point
Moral of the story: it's wiser to opt for modest excellence than for exuberant mediocrity.
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Sounds like something that should have been beaten out of him as a child…back when beating stuff out of kids was acceptable…Wow and all this time i was focused on the pontificating!
Ron is a Trifurcator ....
Pity you missed Sunday…further adjustments and it was by far the best sounding day.Seems like there is a lot of confusion about the Aries Cerat room. Billygxx and I were in that room quite a few times over the course of the show weekend.
There is a lot of validity for the polarizing sound, but not for the emotionally charged derogatory comments IMO. I spoke about this in my show wrap up report, but I didn't go into great detail. To expect that a system like this which has never been released into the wilderness of the show circuit and expect it was going to be close to 100% is wishful thinking, My appraisal having heard it in Cyprus with Billygxx was that it was better in Cyprus without the extra bass cabinets and dual driver for mid bass. Of course that was with untold hours of setup in a treated room so we know what they should sound like.
So to quote Inigo from Princess Bride: "Let me explain... No there is too much to explain...let me sum up.."
Day 1 - The speakers were toed in quite heavily and created an X pattern in the front row. They are VERY directional, but they also throw a lot of energy moving massive amounts of air. Especially in the mid bass horn (2 compression drivers through one horn).
--Result: There was an overloading of the sweet spot combined with 2-3 clicks too loud playback volume that caused a sensory overload, vs being nuanced and delicate without exaggerating one FR. Soundstage was more in between speakers than wide outside of speakers.
Day 2 - I was supposed to record that morning before showers arrived (perks of the job), but ended up working with Stavros to play with better positioning (more toe out and chair repositioning). This took the full hour I had to record so I had to come back that evening to do the II, III, and IV videos. The speakers still did not disappear and the image was blurred compared to point source speakers at the show and that is a drawback of room dimensions. You have to setup for 20+ people and not a single seated position so that was the tradeoff he felt was best.
--Result: The soundstage on day 2 was much better. The imaging was much better, and it had more depth of field which is attributed to improved setup.
Day 3 - Wasn't there until end of day to shoot some more video of an interview, but the speaker system had settled in a bit more and the bass was better, full bodied, and had definition.
Final Thoughts: Depending on which day, which song, and which volume setting you listened to it at you may have had a different experience. There are many rooms that I am sure people did not like, but there isn't an abundance of focus on being OVERLY critical of those rooms, just this one. If I had to guess it is probably to do with the expectation was so high. I think people really wanted that room to be more amazing that it was for them and as a result were very upset by that. Even I had a polarizing experience where some tracks I absolutely loved and some that were a big miss. If the bass horns were not a factor in creating full range the ESD room would have been a better room for those speakers, but alas the bass horns would not allow then to fit widthwise (I think).They like distance for driver integration and less toe In (which my Symphonies I spent over 300 hours to dial those in). Try taking that amount of time and condensing it into 30-60 min a day
.
PS the real star of the that room is the Pandora Turntable so it is a moot point
More like guys who have gone out and tried to hear horns have found good horns and like them.
Then we would still be squinting at the stars through our modestly excellent telescopes !
I too agree with similar exposure there is more alignment. However you have often been guilty of not saying the above, but instead saying that disagreements come due to subjective differences. They come more due to lack of exposure
Trios were always coherent and homogeneous. Any good horn has to transcend that hurdle and show homogeneity, coherence, bass integration, which are the big challenges for horns. G2 too did that very well. There are very few who do
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