Carlos, thank you for this explanation and I have no reason to dispute it. It makes sense. And perhaps it has to do with the mics and the recordings. My point is that modern systems seem to be moving away from the type of sound that I heard last night live. I am wondering why. Perhaps it is just too difficult to figure out and the industry is not able to create an experience which is similar to the live event.
In the 70’s and 80’s, speakers had a knob in the back that would let you adjust their high-frequency contour to suit the listening environment and owner’s preferences.
I think that simple adjustment capabilities would go a long ways to making you and others happy. This whole lack of adjustments philosophy adopted by the high-end audio industry is a tool used to promote equipment churn.
If I disconnect the super-tweeter and attenuate the high-frequency driver on my big horn system I would get a sound more like what you consider “natural”. Conversely, if I leave the super-tweeter and high-frequency drivers as they are and increase the gain on the power to the lower frequency drivers, I would also achieve the “natural” sound you aspire to.
Here’s the deal, at least for me, attenuating the high frequency energy and details robs me of the texture that I prefer to hear with my music. If I wanted to listen to a smooth presentation, I would have settled for much less costly, simpler and less capable systems, and not the highly resolving systems that I have assembled.
Realistic reproduction has to be the goal of the High Fidelity Audio hobby. Luckily some manufacturers still appreciate this, others hide behind the 'its all subjective' line as their equipment is simply not good enough. At the London show, Quested had two rooms, one with live band, the other with a system playing recordings of the same band so you could compare the two:Great question. It depends on the goals of the creators. A painter can be all over the place, striving for realism before photography or abstract creation, and artistic freedom. A novelist is telling a story, perhaps with a message or philosophy. I don’t know what to judge that against. Where is the reality in a novel one reflects and conjures up images based on experience and can either relate or not. I find a pretty easy to get lost in a movie. My mind gets absorbed by the images sounds and story and action.
One of the early goals of Audio I had thought was a realistic representation of the original event. I’m wondering if that is still the goal. Perhaps it’s more art along every step of the creation and playback to evoke a feeling or simply enjoyment.
All that is fine. Entertainment, enjoyment are worthy goals. Is that all we are trying to do with our systems? Personally, I am trying to get closer to the listening experience I have at the live event. Everyone might have that same goal, I am not really sure.
Very true indeed. I was going to mention that in my previous post. If someone did that, it would be death by a thousand analog (digital is too harsh and grainy) cuts.I can't even remember a thread that starts with a claim that "vinyl sucks" or a question like "why is digital superior?"
One additional note, to achieve that “raw” and “live” sound that I desire, the high frequency extension and detail is mandatory to realize that sound texture.
Conversely, to achieve the “natural” sound that you desire, the high frequency roll-off is mandatory to achieve that perceived sense of “weight” and “smoothness”.
In the 70’s and 80’s, speakers had a knob in the back that would let you adjust their high-frequency contour to suit the listening environment and owner’s preferences.
I think that simple adjustment capabilities would go a long ways to making you and others happy. This whole lack of adjustments philosophy adopted by the high-end audio industry is a tool used to promote equipment churn.
If I disconnect the super-tweeter and attenuate the high-frequency driver on my big horn system I would get a sound more like what you consider “natural”. Conversely, if I leave the super-tweeter and high-frequency drivers as they are and increase the gain on the power to the lower frequency drivers, I would also achieve the “natural” sound you aspire to.
Here’s the deal, at least for me, attenuating the high frequency energy and details robs me of the texture that I prefer to hear with my music. If I wanted to listen to a smooth presentation, I would have settled for much less costly, simpler and less capable systems, and not the highly resolving systems that I have assembled.
So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...Not all digital is created equal. Look into HQPLAYER and high rate DSD playback with chipless DAC’s, such as the T+A DAC200 and those based on the Signalyst DSC discrete Delta-Sigma digital-to-analog converter “Open Hardware”.
Great question. It depends on the goals of the creators. A painter can be all over the place, striving for realism before photography or abstract creation, and artistic freedom. A novelist is telling a story, perhaps with a message or philosophy. I don’t know what to judge that against. Where is the reality in a novel one reflects and conjures up images based on experience and can either relate or not. I find a pretty easy to get lost in a movie. My mind gets absorbed by the images sounds and story and action.
One of the early goals of Audio I had thought was a realistic representation of the original event. I’m wondering if that is still the goal. Perhaps it’s more art along every step of the creation and playback to evoke a feeling or simply enjoyment.
All that is fine. Entertainment, enjoyment are worthy goals. Is that all we are trying to do with our systems? Personally, I am trying to get closer to the listening experience I have at the live event. Everyone might have that same goal, I am not really sure.
So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...
Nope. For me it’s digital waves vs analogue waves. We hear analogue and I personally feel those waves and listen to digital. Not a scientist.It makes no scientific sense. And I am nothing if not a diehard scientist with a PhD in computer science to boot, having spent a large part of my career teaching in one of the world’s greatest PhD programs in CS, and now working at one of the world”s leading software firms in the Bay Area. I’m no technological Luddite. I’ve invested heavily in digital with top solid state and tube DACs.
But each time I play my vinyl on one of my turntables, man oh man, why do I always feel that digital sucks? I’m listening to a garden variety pop album — Fleetwood Mac — on an SME 20/12 table with the V12 arm with a Koetsu Onyx Platinum feeding the ARC Ref 3SE phono stage. The sound is organic, so compelling to listen to that my left brain analytical mind that whispers this is all distortion sounding pleasant is quashed by my right brain saying who cares when it sounds so good?
Am I delusional?
Rob Watts gives a very good explanation of how the human brain hears music at the Munich High End Show last week with this years release of the new Chord Quartet M Scaler for the Chord DAVE DAC;You certain? Take a listen to Rob Watts talk about all the problems with digital reconstruction filters (various YouTube talks) and how he’s trying to solve them with his products and you cannot help but think, “ah, this is why vinyl sounds so good - it already has *all* the critical information that he, and others in their own way, are trying to reconstruct”. I realise this is an appeal to (Rob’s) authority, but he has some interesting insights and his gear is very well regarded, so perhaps he’s on to something? I personally think so, but could be wrong, of course. Anecdotally, the digital chain also seems extremely susceptible to electrical noise that degrades the output. As you attend to these issues digital does seem to get better and better, but you ultimately still run into the reconstruction issue… and that’s the fatal blow, IMO.
Erm, hmm, the recordingsErm, hmm, what was your point again?![]()
3) In a subjective hobby I strongly disagree with mistaking one's personal preference for any kind of objective fact. I hope you are not back to your view that if somebody does not like the type of sound you like, than they don't know what "natural sound" is.
In other words the fact that I may agree with your personal preference in sound does not make either of us "correct" in any objective sense.
This comment makes no sense to me at all….So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...
So there was april 15’th 1981.Sophistry.
I never said anything about smoothness. Those are your words that you are trying to attribute to me. I did not hear smooth last night with the performance. I did not hear the thin tipped up bright sound that I hear from your videos. I understand that you like that and that is fine, but I don’t hear that live and I don’t want to hear it from my system. I want to have that same experience, the energy filling the room and the power of the sound the startling dynamics. The realistic timber so the instruments sound the way they do live. There was nothing thin or smooth or bright in the live music experience of that jazz performance.
So many competing "solutions" just tells me there's still a fundamental problem with digital that these approaches are attempting to solve...
This comment makes no sense to me at all….
It probably has more to do with money ... the digital age.So there was april 15’th 1981.
The day that Herbert Von Karajan sat beside Akio Morita (boss of Sony)!at the release of the cd medium
View attachment 131342
And he said:
‘We are grateful that it has happened"..
Perfect sound forever…
So Herbert Von Karajan was the actuall driving force that made Sony release the Digital era.
Or CD, to be more exact.
Timbre, Dynamics and harmonics…
but vinyl was not dead..,
There Are talks about 6bit DSD these days.
I Wonder , whom will champion that?
Was Karajan making a Sophism - or is Vinyl dead.