Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?
- Thread starter godofwealth
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I'll rotate my Mac mini and see what happens!Sounds like crosstalk, try adjusting azimuth
If it is ~2 seconds off (60/33.3) then it is the neighbouring groove.
This is why Direct Metal cuts have some appeal… especially when the groves are close together
There is some plowing happening during the cut that is deforming adjacent to the cut and pushing over to the next groove.
This is why Direct Metal cuts have some appeal… especially when the groves are close together
There is some plowing happening during the cut that is deforming adjacent to the cut and pushing over to the next groove.
It’s most probably a tape print through as @Audiohertz2 mentioned. Tapes are stored as tails out. It means a print through will be a pre echo rather than a post echo which is more annoying.
I heard pre echo due to tape print through on many AAD cds.
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That's an interesting thought. I always assumed the pre-echo was caused by the formation of the adjacent groove, which means there should be both pre echo and post echo on parts of the recording, since there is a pre and post groove directly adjacent most of the time. I found some posts on other forums that suggested the cutting of the groove distorts the adjacent grooves enough for a small amount of sound to leak through. The cartridge azimuth could potentially effect hearing one more than the other, I suppose, especially if the upper part of the groove closer to the record's surface gets more of the effect than down deeper in the groove.I mean if your turntable is playing with a "pre-echo"
That's good to know. Somehow I had never noticed it before except on LP, where it can be quite pronounced, and may be because of the groove cutting effect. If it was both print through and "groove through" you'd think you'd hear two pre-echoes, because they wouldn't be at the same time. Anybody ever heard that? If not, it's probably just tape print through. I've never confirmed that I could hear a post echo on LP.
Digitally this could be relatively easy to largely eliminate by superimposing and timing the pre-echo against the recording but out of phase. Might be easier said than done, but it should work since it's not random noise. Heck, it could even be done analog!
Tape print through is hard to notice on vinyl because of the surface noise and being low in level. On the other side pre echo due to loud adjacent groove is more prominent but it is possible to hear both pre echoes on vinyl.
With the help of nice headphones I've heard tape print through on cassettes I recorded from cds back in the day.
It seems a little faster than that, more like 1 second. You can hear it at about 56 seconds on the Youtube video, the quick flute scale after the silence.
I'm learning a lot about pre -echo from grooves and tape print through, but this doesn't do much to answer why some find more goodness in the sound of vinyl. For those who prefer vinyl, does this preference hold as much to mono recordings as it does to stereo? The reason I ask is that it has occurred to me that with a stereo cartridge an interesting effect occurs. There is some inevitable cross feed between the channels, and it is reverse polarity. I don't know if it's loud enough to have an effect, but if you've ever tried mixing the opposite channels attenuated and reverse polarity, the effects are pretty interesting.
I just did a quick experiment using Audacity to listen to reverse polarity cross feed. It definitely has an audible effect that I can notice immediately at -16 dB. Cartridges I think have crossfeed between -20 to -30 dB. At -16 dB on headphones I liked the crossfeed. It made the sound less hard, gave it a little more atmosphere. At -23 dB I can still hear it, and it's a little softer and sweeter than with it turned off.
This does nothing to explain why some prefer reel to reel.
I just did a quick experiment using Audacity to listen to reverse polarity cross feed. It definitely has an audible effect that I can notice immediately at -16 dB. Cartridges I think have crossfeed between -20 to -30 dB. At -16 dB on headphones I liked the crossfeed. It made the sound less hard, gave it a little more atmosphere. At -23 dB I can still hear it, and it's a little softer and sweeter than with it turned off.
This does nothing to explain why some prefer reel to reel.
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Maybe that “tape print through” causal mechanism has some merit.
There is no way I can conjure cart alignment to be the cause.
Out of curiosity, does anyone here find that that with headphones they prefer listening to digital than analog, and vice versa with speakers?
Nice to see you progressing in your high-end audio pursuits. I’m guessing it won't be too much longer before you prefer listening to digital from your speakers as well.
Definitely not. My headphone rig reveals all that is wrong with digital.
My speakers sound cleaner in the bass with digital, but with much better mids and highs with a good pressing.
It is certainly easier to make a case that with a DAC with PEQ filters can be used to flatter response easily for digital.
And if there are a few “banks” then headphone or IEMs can also be “tuned”.
A lot of IEMs and headphones seem to have better transcient response than speakers. Of course one can do all sorts of thing ni the digital domain to correct that.
On the analogue side I just go straight out.
Mostly it is that I use IEMs when on the move, and/or when the music is not preferred by the Haus-Boss.
And the LPs are a community/shared experience.
I do have some RCA to 1/8” jack (Male and female versions), and that can pretty handy for testing out the system either listing with IEMs along the path, or injecting in from an iPhone or tablet. Particular for working out hims and ground loops. Etc.
I'm not much of a headphones listener, but I find vinyl is far more pleasurable on speakers than headphones (the intrinsic distortions of vinyl, like tics and pops, are far too obvious and upfront on headphones, and it's distracting). But, the biggest problem with headphones for me are 1) the image stays in your head and not out in space 2) headphones by and large are more colored sounding than the best (electrostatic) loudspeakers. I haven't splurged on a Stax 9000, perhaps it fixes some of these issues. I have a Sennheiser 800S, which is very comfortable, but quite colored. I do have a cheaper Koss electrostatic headphones, which is definitely less colored than my Sennheiser. But all said and done, I'm not much of a headphones listener, except when I jog or walk or take the train, where I use my AirPods Pros.
i've dived very seriously into headphones twice, and both times i did find it fit into my digital listening process better than vinyl. no doubt that even though vinyl gave up more than digital in terms of performance with headphones, there was still much more meat on the bones with vinyl.
the reason digital fit better was the idea of being able to physically disconnect from the logistics of musical selection with digital. i could set up a playlist and basically 'check out' and float in space with headphones. changing sides with vinyl was not as complimentary of why i use headphones. for that totally out of body experience. and agree that headphone listening captures a larger portion of the whole digital envelope compared to the whole vinyl picture.
my early headphone period (2010-2012) included a Headamp BHSE amp and Stax SR-900 headphones. my late headphone period (2019-2021) was with Stax SR-900S and the MSB Select Electrostatic amplifier. i was thinking about the Stax SR-9000 headphones but then sold my headphone stuff to fund other gear.
no 'serious' headphone rig now.
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Digital source -> ecdesigns powerDAC-SX -> speakers or headphones
Analog source -> M2tech Joplin ADC -> ecdesigns powerDAC-SX -> speakers or headhpones
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