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Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

Rensselaer said:
People on this forum talk about "upgrading" to level four Wadax. Have you seen what that costs? The Wadax Atlantis Transport sells in the UK for £110,000.00 , the Wadax Atlantis Reference DAC for £160,000.00 , the Akasa optical dual for £26,000.00 and the Wadax Reference Power Supply for £50,000.00 . Will that expenditure guarantee better sound than any turntable playing vinyl records?
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no. it won't. but......it does not have to do that. that is only important to posters on the forum. who clearly enjoy discussing it....me too sometimes.

today my own 3 Wadax Akasa DC cables arrive to complete my Level 4 Wadax set-up. 2 months ago i had a demo set of these cables in my system for a week, and it was superb. amazing even. and i've missed having them......i cannot un-hear what they did.

but equal or surpass my vinyl? or my tape? each at their best? nope. but that is not my agenda to achieve. my aim is to optimize what i listen to most, which is my digital. and in the process Level 4 Wadax does cause me to not really think about needing to try another format.

even though i have SOTA analog choices sitting here in my room with lots of great media.

to paraphrase my friend @jazdoc ......listening to (Level 4 Wadax or your own ultimate) digital can be too much fun to care about analog, and only care about enjoying the music.
 
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Mike Lavigne said:
no. it won't. but......it does not have to do that. that is only important to posters on the forum. who clearly enjoy discussing it....me too sometimes.

today my own 3 Wadax Akasa DC cables arrive to complete my Level 4 Wadax set-up. 2 months ago i had a demo set of these cables in my system for a week, and it was superb. amazing even. and i've missed having them......i cannot un-hear what they did.

but equal or surpass my vinyl? or my tape? each at their best? nope. but that is not my agenda to achieve. my aim is to optimize what i listen to most, which is my digital. and in the process Level 4 Wadax does cause me to not really think about needing to try another format.

even though i have SOTA analog choices sitting here in my room with lots of great media.

to paraphrase my friend @jazdoc ......listening to (Level 4 Wadax or your own ultimate) digital can be too much fun to care about analog, and only care about enjoying the music.
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Fair enough Mike, you really like the sound of your digital rig (whether or not it sounds like live music).

The only way a discussion on “this or that” being “best” can conclude with an answer is if the end point is agreed upon.

We haven’t yet actually agreed that the end point to this query is a system that gives the closest facsimile to that of “live music”, so whatever you like is the “best” for you…end of discussion.
 
rDin said:
What would it take is a great question, and one we should all regularly ask ourselves as we seek to increase our own certainty, one way o[r] the other, on any given topic. Here, I suppose are a few things that would shift my certainty one way or the other:

The community consensus settles on the view that all DACs sound alike.
Or, better yet, settles on one particular DAC as "the one" that unequivocally bests all others.
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Thanks for the explanation. May I respectfully suggest that some audio folks choose not to question why they like digital and simply enjoy listening to music, regardless of media, while some other audio types choose to question the messenger and ignore the message. And then there is the vast majority of the population that is concerned about "reality" based issues in today's world.

The community? I do not think that includes the WBF crowd.
 
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thedudeabides said:
May I respectfully suggest that some audio folks choose not to question why they like digital and simply enjoy listening to music while some other audio types choose to question the messenger and ignore the message.
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Of course. Each to their own.
 
andromedaaudio said:
Based on what i heard i dont understand why the majority of spenders/ designers put so much money in expensive TT designs
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Vinyl is where much of the music is. Some try to improve the method of extracting the information in those vinyl grooves without corrupting it. It is a small market and development costs are high, so prices are high. A Garrard 401 or Micro SX 5000 level with the right arm and cartridge (does not need to be expensive) is a front end that gets you very far in terms of musical enjoyment with those cherished LPs. That achievement was accomplished years ago. There is a reason those type of tables are still in demand. However, with a lot of effort, one can improve on them.
 
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Rensselaer said:
Fair enough Mike, you really like the sound of your digital rig (whether or not it sounds like live music).

The only way a discussion on “this or that” being “best” can conclude with an answer is if the end point is agreed upon.

We haven’t yet actually agreed that the end point to this query is a system that gives the closest facsimile to that of “live music”, so whatever you like is the “best” for you…end of discussion.
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i don't see it that way at all. we can never agree on an end point for judging art. the closest we can get is that if we sit side by side and compare sources. but even then some of us just want to enjoy, and some want to be critical. maybe when doing a cartridge setup collectively we can then agree on points of reference. but agree beyond that? maybe not.

you cannot pin down live music any more than the concept of preferences.....or subjective best. none of these 'ideas' are objective ends. they are all fuzzy. we all use our ears every day listening to life. we all know real, or shades less than real. some might be trained to understand performance nuances, but does that allow them to know real more than another? doubtful.

do i think my digital sounds like/similar to/reminds me of 'live music'? sure. might my analog get a bit closer? sure. where does that leave us? i would agree that digital might be more accurate, analog more complete, but those perspectives are fuzzy too.

looking for proof; my view is that this is the wrong forum for that. which i celebrate.
 
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I continue to be struck by how important it is for some vinyl enthusiasts to never tire of proselytizing about how superior their chosen method of music playback is to the alternative. Can these enthusiasts only fully enjoy their method of music listening by gripping onto the belief that it is better than something else? It seems like misguided energy to me. And yes, I know this forum is titled “what’s best. “

It reminds me, from my world in photography, of some of the black and white printmaking zealots who seemed to devote more emotional energy into process over actual quality of artistic output. (I love b/w prints btw.)

The biggest draw for me to digital playback is the far greater access to music. And I don’t feel any longer that I’m sacrificing sq in any meaningful way for that access.

I appreciate Mike L’s balanced approach on this subject.

Now, anyone for some GrammerTalk?
 
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Why oh why do people continue to debate the same old thing over and over again?
 
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dcathro said:
Why oh why do people continue to debate the same old thing over and over again?
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because they didn’t get the other camp to agree with them last time
 
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dcathro said:
Why oh why do people continue to debate the same old thing over and over again?
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bonzo75 said:
because they didn’t get the other camp to agree with them last time
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very few are all in with all formats and are actually enjoying all formats. most have heavy biases. and since the answer is unknowable plenty of fodder to fuel the discourse. cases can be made. and it's fun to hang out. few want any outcome.

i'm personally 3 decades seriously into this issue......so far....
 
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Rensselaer said:
Fair enough Mike, you really like the sound of your digital rig (whether or not it sounds like live music).

The only way a discussion on “this or that” being “best” can conclude with an answer is if the end point is agreed upon.

We haven’t yet actually agreed that the end point to this query is a system that gives the closest facsimile to that of “live music”, so whatever you like is the “best” for you…end of discussion.
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Yes, there is no agreed upon end point. We discussed it in Ron's audiophile goal thread and came up with at least four different goals. At some level, this is all rhetorical. There is no clear goal or target, and therefore no singular approach. I think "enjoyment" or "entertainment" is as close as we get, and if that is indeed the case, then it is not really surprising that the industry produces such varied outcomes.
 
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Mike Lavigne said:
i'm personally 3 decades seriously into this issue......so far....
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One would have thought with practice you would have been able to convince others
 
bonzo75 said:
One would have thought with practice you would have been able to convince others
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digital is not a fixed spot since the 70's. it has evolved. as have my views of it.

there were periods where i had more extreme opinions where the digital was less capable and satisfying. where digital needed some taming. mostly with dsd. the warts were more prevalent. but that time is more than a decade ago now. and when that changed i'm sure widely varied user to user. might still be happening. some gave up on it and never really opened to it again. no problem.

but they bring that baggage into threads. and away we go.

when was the last time someone changed their mind on this subject based on a forum thread?

plenty have changed their minds in my room listening though. as have i.
 
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bonzo75 said:
One would have thought with practice you would have been able to convince others
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Kedar, of what exactly would you have thought Mike would have been able to convince others? Do you even think he has tried? From what I can tell, Mike has always done his own thing for his own enjoyment and graciously shares his efforts with those who want to visit.
 
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